Why coffee needs to ''rest'' before making espresso - Page 2

[barry]

Staling is such a negative word, loaded with negative connotations. If the coffee flavor peaks on day 4, then it has aged to its peak.

does that mean on day 5 it has begun to stale?


a friend once told us of when he worked at KFC, and they had different terms for "grease" depending upon where it was found. if it was in the fryer, it was "fry media"; if it was on the finished chicken, it was "flavor juices"; if it was on the floor, it was "grease". same thing, different words.


sorry, i try to avoid language inflation. i read edwin newman too long ago.



--barry "incentivize"

[hperry]

I suppose some of how an individual views whether there is "staling or resting" is the coffee and some of it individual taste. Following is a quote from Caffe Fresco about their beans from their website.

* Our Gentle, Slow Roasting Style Ideally Requires Our Espresso To Have A Min. Of 5 days Of Rest After Roast. Coffee, 3 Days After Roast. Day 8 Is When The Degassing Completely Subsides. For The Sake Of Freshness It's Best To Let The Beans Degas In Their Heat-Sealed, One-Way Valved Bags.

* The Prime Flavor Window Coincides With The Rest And Degassing. Our Espresso Begins To Come Into The Window At Day 5, And The Optimum Days Are 7 Through 14.

They at least think their coffee should "rest" before drinking, and indeed, not be really their best until 7 days from roast. For my taste, at least, their instructions are authenticated in the cup.

[roblumba]

I don't think it language inflation. It's just effective use of words to describe something. If the "rest" or "aging" period is good for the flavor, then it's just inappropriate to use a negative word "staling" because it doesn't accurately describe reality. Staling is a process which we consider something to become to a less desirable state. However, in this case, the resting or aging of the beans brings it to an improved state.

Additionally, the beans are not simply left out in open air, in the sun during this period. In my opinion, the ideal aging process should be in an air tight container, in a dark place with a stable, preferably slightly cool temperature, allowing for the beans to release their gas.

The exact opposite would be to pregrind them, put them in an open container next to a sunny window in a humid hot environment. This would definitely turn the "aging" into "staling".

[another_jim]

... Aging, staling, maturing, weathering, seasoning, rotting, decaying, mouldering, decrescing, rusting, eroding, dimming, subsiding, extinguishing ...

Most word choices are about connotation.

[roblumba]

Connotation can be both a wonderful and a horrible thing. Martha Stewart makes a living off of connotation. I saw a show she did on eggs. Hard boiled, scrambled, etc. It would seem like a fairly mundane subject. But she uses all these words that sound so good. I mean, the way she talks is really a good thing and it's quite wonderful. I really very much like the way she talks. It's just excellent and perfect.

[barry]

I don't think it language inflation. It's just effective use of words to describe something. If the "rest" or "aging" period is good for the flavor, then it's just inappropriate to use a negative word "staling" because it doesn't accurately describe reality.

given that the first stage of staling is generally recognized to be the loss of volatile aromatics during the degassing phase, then yes, that "rest" period is a staling period. i'm certainly not going to protest that many people may prefer coffee which has partially staled, as that is a matter of taste. there are far more people who prefer coffee which is substantially more stale, as the dominance of completely degassed coffee in cans is good evidence. maybe folgers is just "well aged".

fwiw, i'm not against the whole "resting" concept, and i will agree that some coffees taste better after they've been sitting for a few days. lasagna or spaghetti often tastes better the next day, too. i just wouldn't call it "fresh" lasagna; i would call it "leftovers". if one is going to let one's coffee sit around for up to a week or so before use, then i think one is on very slippery ground in any discussion advocating "fresh" coffee.

--barry

btw, some people freak when i describe the Swiss Water Process decaf method as a "direct contact chemical process", and yet that is what it is.

[roblumba]

given that the first stage of staling is generally recognized to be the loss of volatile aromatics during the degassing phase

So it sounds more like there's an aroma vs. taste compromise here. I would venture to guess that there are some aroma components that disappear in the aging of grapes too. That fresh grape smell probably disappears.

Seems like a tough call. Aromatics vs taste. How can we optimize both of them? Are there some blends that optimize these. The northern italian espresso from Ecco Caffe had a wonderful smell the first few days. I enjoyed the smell for sure. However, the taste really didn't "wow" me until a few days later. Perhaps it's just the life of a bean to be enjoyed. It's really very good and perfect.

[barry]

The northern italian espresso from Ecco Caffe had a wonderful smell the first few days. I enjoyed the smell for sure. However, the taste really didn't "wow" me until a few days later. Perhaps it's just the life of a bean to be enjoyed. It's really very good and perfect.

as i've said before: i enjoy coffee from the moment it is roasted until the moment i don't.

i'm actually testing a batch of coffee right now. it's been sealed up since roasting last monday, and i'm going to make espresso with it tomorrow morning. because i haven't been tasting it from day 1, if it "peaked" sometime this week, i will have missed it and will never know what it could have tasted like.

i think we have to acknowledge that virtually all espresso blends are intended for consumption several days after roasting. it is one of those rough facts of commercial coffee roasting: very rarely is the coffee able to be used right away. it does not surprise me that blends which are developed using several day old coffee will taste better several days after roasting. maybe in the next couple of months i'll work up a blend which tastes best in the first couple of days after roasting, and then fades as it is "rested".

[HB]

it does not surprise me that blends which are developed using several day old coffee will taste better several days after roasting.

Though I have no way of proving it, I've felt the same way about the flat versus humped temperature profile debate. If you carefully develop a blend on a certain type of equipment, surprise surprise, there's a good chance that equipment designed along the same trajectory will outperform espresso machines having "non-compliant" designs. Maybe there is thee best temperature profile, pressure profile, or whatever measure you choose, but somehow I doubt that Nature's way is so convenient. Like developing blends that tolerate staling well, roasters consciously (or not?) develop blends that perform well on their clients' predominant equipment supplier.

Thanks Barry for sharing your thought-provoking point of view. I look forward to sampling your "gotta drink it NOW!" espresso blend someday, though I don't look forward to paying the overnight shipping fee.

[barry]

If you carefully develop a blend on a certain type of equipment, surprise surprise, there's a good chance that equipment designed along the same trajectory will outperform espresso machines having "non-compliant" designs.

greg and i have discussed this several times, too.

[AndyS]

approximately 75% of the CO2 in a bean is liberated during grinding. if you have fresh coffee, have you tried letting the grounds sit for a couple of minutes before use to allow that CO2 to dissipate?

Yesterday I roasted a Brazil/Sum/Uganda blend. About an hour afterwards I pulled a couple espresso shots with it.

For the first shot, I let the grounds sit in my Mazzer Mini for two minutes before dosing/distributing/packing. The shot had an eye-watering bitter grapefruit front end. It was hard to take.

I let the grounds sit for six minutes before preparing the second shot. It was a lot better. The grapefruit was still there, but the flavors had rounded out a bit and included marzipan and light roasty notes.

Based on this testing, i'd say that a 11.45 minute rest period would have hit the sweet spot with this coffee.

I'd also say that I believe you when you say "i enjoy coffee from the moment it is roasted until the moment i don't," but I'm skeptical that you enjoy just-roasted coffee as espresso. There is often a point about four or five days post-roast when the blend really comes together as espresso. Even though what you call "staling" may have removed some of the more evanescent flavor elements, what remains can be magic.

[roblumba]

Based on this testing, i'd say that a 11.45 minute rest period would have hit the sweet spot with this coffee.

Was that a 14 minute rest period of the ground beans? That would be quite a big difference compared to the whole beans.

[another_jim]

I'd also say that I believe you when you say "i enjoy coffee from the moment it is roasted until the moment i don't," but I'm skeptical that you enjoy just-roasted coffee as espresso. There is often a point about four or five days post-roast when the blend really comes together as espresso. Even though what you call "staling" may have removed some of the more evanescent flavor elements, what remains can be magic.

I think it depends on the coffee. I tend to use my roasts for espresso on day I roast, latest the day after. If I get the lemon peel or grapefruit thing, I don't use that coffee in my blend (oddly, this note does **not** correlate well with the acidity of the coffee). However, this means I'm no expert on resting, since I end up weeding out the coffees that may benefit from it.

I got a sample of the very celebrated 2nd place, Jose Junqeira, Brazil COE coffee today (thanks Miguel), and couldn't resist trying the North Italian roast I did on it straight out of the roaster. The shot was pure liquid Toblerone -- milk chocolate, almonds and honey. If that appeals to you, try hunting down a pound (Ecco and the Roasterie are the listed buyers); this one is an almost platonic Brazil. I really doubt that it will develop into anything better over the next week; but there's no way it's going to get worse either.

I don't know if I'd give it a 90+ like the COE folks -- it's a perfect Brazil, but still a brazil -- and I'd be very tempted to add around 20% of a good Guat Frejanes to zing it up a bit; but I suspect that as an SO, it's consistent and crowd pleasing enough that it'll be used by a few competitors at this years WBC (Kaffa in Norway was a big buyer).

[AndyS]

Based on this testing, i'd say that a 11.45 minute rest period would have hit the sweet spot with this coffee.

Was that a 14 minute rest period of the ground beans? That would be quite a big difference compared to the whole beans.

Trying to be humorous (lame, I know), I was speculating that a rest period (of the ground beans before packing) of more the 6 minutes might have made the shots even better. 11.45 minutes was a just wild guess.

[roblumba]

The shot was pure liquid Toblerone -- milk chocolate, almonds and honey. If that appeals to you, try hunting down a pound (Ecco and the Roasterie are the listed buyers);

I've been buying Ecco Reserve Northern Italian Roast exclusively the last month for exactly that reason. It ages very well and tastes exactly as you described it.

One thing I thought made a big difference for aging is the oil. Is it kept in the bean or can you see it on the outside of the bean? Since I felt the oils are volatile, they are better kept inside the bean, otherwise, the oils are more subject to become rancid. I thought I read about this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

The Northern Italian Roast from Ecco Caffe is done in such a way that there is no oily appearance to the beans. I think Schomer does the same with his beans. They all look dry. I've assumed that this means that all the oils are safely stored inside the bean, but perhaps this may also mean that there are not as many oils in the bean to begin with.

What do you all think?

[another_jim]

One thing I thought made a big difference for aging is the oil. Is it kept in the bean or can you see it on the outside of the bean? Since I felt the oils are volatile, they are better kept inside the bean, otherwise, the oils are more subject to become rancid. I thought I read about this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

Oil on the bean depends on roast level. The lightest roasts for espresso (North Italian or Light Full City) will not show oil in the first few weeks after the roast. Darker roasts will either be oily out of the roaster (French roasts) or oil up in about 3 to 5 days (Vienna roasts).

The best degree of roast is a matter of taste and bean type. The Junqueira, for instance, cupped a little gunpowdery, so would not do for a darker roast. Many indos, on the other hand, are at their best at Vienna roasts with oily beans.

The bit about the oils staling more on the outside than the inside of the bean strikes me like a clever bit of defamation Schomer came up with when he was still battling the idea that espresso had to be roasted to Starbucks levels. From a PR point of view, it's better to insist one is right, and the rest of the world is wrong, than to say there's room for all sorts of coffees.

PR and truth don't mix. The oil bit seems like obvious PR to me for a simple reason -- there's no such thing as a dark roast without oil on it; hence, to say visible oil is bad is to say no more than dark roasts are bad. Brewed coffee drinkers tend to disparage dark roasts for reducing the aroma and acidity of the coffee; this is undoubtedly true, but since "acidity" is a scare word for most coffee drinkers, the stale oil bit has legs as a put down.

[HAL9000]

Oil on the bean depends on roast level. The lightest roasts for espresso (North Italian or Light Full City) will not show oil in the first few weeks after the roast. Darker roasts will either be oily out of the roaster (French roasts) or oil up in about 3 to 5 days (Vienna roasts).

In my undocumented and unscientific experience I have found amount of surface oil to relate also to the roast profile. Fast roast = more oil even cutting roast at same "crack point" as more finessed ramp for me. Anyone else experience this? First saw this immediately when I switched from unmodified to pidded popper, and it was very noticeable to me. Stark even. No idea why this might happen, but it certainly did for me.

[another_jim]

In my undocumented and unscientific experience I have found amount of surface oil to relate also to the roast profile. Fast roast = more oil even cutting roast at same "crack point" as more finessed ramp for me. Anyone else experience this? First saw this immediately when I switched from unmodified to pidded popper, and it was very noticeable to me. Stark even. No idea why this might happen, but it certainly did for me.

The 2nd crack occurs at a lower temp on longer roasts. For instance, first pops of the second is a City roast on a drum, a full city roast on most air roasters. This, along with the vagaries of thermometry when one changes roaster or profile (change the environmental temperature, and you change all the bean temp readings), makes for some really complicated tradeoffs for length of roast, surface color, and final temperature.

But after this obligatory "complications waffling," I think you're right. A fast roast requires high environmental temperatures. This will create darker and oilier surfaces when the final (ground) color of the bean remains constant.

[roblumba]

That was my other understanding. Oily surface also means faster roast. And as the old saying goes, the best things come to those who wait. I felt that there was a double gain with the dryer surface. The oil was protected inside the bean and the roast was done slower and with more care. But then again, perhaps it's just PR.

[swines]

While the coffee may be losing some aromatics while it rests, you seem to ignore the fact that the oils and sugars continue to combine, develop, and change after roasting for a period of time. The flavor development of the beans doesn't stop at the moment the beans have cooled to room temperature.

By using the coffee immediately, you've not given the chemistry in the bean that was started by roasting time to finish. Flavor development is really a better term than "staling" - which is neither accurate nor descriptive of what is happening within the bean after roasting. Staling means to be made unpalatable from age.

If coffee develops better flavor because you've allowed the chemistry that was started by roasting to fully finish - that, by definition can't be staling as the flavor has been improved and not degraded.