Which basket for a fill, level then tamp 14g dose?

[TimEggers]

I've gone back to using a 14g dose by weight like I used to do before dosing, leveling and tamping. The espresso is great but one thing I can't do is dose, level and tamp and end up with a 14g dose. To get the basket to fill up and still end with my desired 14g dose requires a grind too coarse for a decent (or even usable) pour. I have to grind more coarse so 14g of coffee fills the basket.

I can tighten the grind to get a good pour but I end up with a 16g dose (or more) in the basket. The espresso is pretty good but I want to get back to the 14g dose.

Is there a different basket available that may be a little smaller that when properly ground coffee is filled into it, leveled then tamped one can get a good pour with a 14g (by weight) dose?

Currently I'm using my Quickmill's standard basket. Any pointers to specific baskets?

[jesawdy]

Tim-

I think it will depend almost as much on the grinder, coffee and your dosing/distributing technique in addition to the basket, if you want a level cut at 14g.

The Rancilio double basket is smallish. Also, Espresso Resource has some 12g baskets that I've wanted to try, but have not.

Ken or Jim may likely chime in here that you don't need to level cut, as these smaller doses are somewhat self healing. I'd agree that you can dose by sight (or weight with a scale), and just jostle or tap the sides of the portafilter to level and get good results. I will just tap the sides to level or just go with the leveling that occurs with WDT and go.

[Ken Fox]

I've gone back to using a 14g dose by weight like I used to do before dosing, leveling and tamping. The espresso is great but one thing I can't do is dose, level and tamp and end up with a 14g dose. To get the basket to fill up and still end with my desired 14g dose requires a grind too coarse for a decent (or even usable) pour. I have to grind more coarse so 14g of coffee fills the basket.

I can tighten the grind to get a good pour but I end up with a 16g dose (or more) in the basket. The espresso is pretty good but I want to get back to the 14g dose.

Is there a different basket available that may be a little smaller that when properly ground coffee is filled into it, leveled then tamped one can get a good pour with a 14g (by weight) dose?

Currently I'm using my Quickmill's standard basket. Any pointers to specific baskets?

I'm unaware of any baskets like this, and in fact they may be detrimental to the espresso if they do exist. My thinking at this point is that the headspace from a larger basket (than the coffee dose) makes precise distribution and tamping unnecessary, and the logical extension of this thought would be to try out an ultra deep "triple" basket in a bottomless PF to see how that works out. I'll get around to trying that out eventually.

In any event, I think you are going to find that you will need to find another method of accurate dosing other than relying on getting the coffee dose flat with the top of the basket. In a high volume environment, the doser can be adjusted to provide whatever dose you want, however in a home or other low volume setting, a scale is probably the best solution.

I ordered low volume "12g" baskets from espresso parts source, and unfortunately (as they warned me when I placed the order) these baskets hold much more than 12g, in fact they hold 17g according to my scale.

Since these "12g" baskets they are selling are industry standard, and since they (espresso parts source) directly import and wholesale them to many other dealers, you will probably get more or less the same item no matter whom you buy it from, so the search is probably futile for the purposes you express.

ken

[HB]

I'm unaware of any baskets like this, and in fact they may be detrimental to the espresso if they do exist. My thinking at this point is that the headspace from a larger basket (than the coffee dose) makes precise distribution and tamping unnecessary, and the logical extension of this thought would be to try out an ultra deep "triple" basket in a bottomless PF to see how that works out. I'll get around to trying that out eventually.

That's what I was doing yesterday, i.e., using the deeper ridgeless 18+ grams basket with a lower dose of 15 grams. There was a lot of headspace, but the pours were easy. I used a scale for dosing and didn't intentionally change my distribution / tamping routine. The extra preinfusion time because of the vibe pump's slow rampup does seem to offer a wider margin of error.

Once I ordered some extra baskets and Chris Coffee accidentally sent me the smaller "E61 12 grams" baskets instead. They have been quietly gathering dust in the drawer for over a year; I really should give them a try:


18 and 12 gram basket from Controlling shot extraction pattern

Sorry, that's a horrible picture. Another small basket is the stock Giotto double:


Giotto stock basket (left) and ubiquitous 18 gram basket (right)

For sake of completeness:


Stock 18 grams Faema-style (top), ridgeless basket (bottom) from Quickmill baskets?

The lowest I can consistently volume dose with stock Faema-style baskets is 15 grams. Below that threshold I have to do a "WDT fluff" to do a proper redistribute, though based on your comments and others, I may be able to dispense with this by grinding even finer and tamping lighter. Funny how I've read that same comment years ago and haven't given it a fair shake. It's not easy to change one's habits...

[TimEggers]

Thanks for the clarification Ken. I am beginning to see exactly what you are talking about now.

So why has the dose, level and tamp routine become so prevalent even though it often results is very large doses?

Or in other words why has updosing become so popular?

[cafeIKE]

Gotta say the idea of a fixed 14g dose may not be the best idea.

Dose for the best taste. Full Stop !!!

12g basket and scraper.

I've had the scraper for many, many years, but saw them at Cookin' Stuff in Torrance CA a few months back.

Here's my routine for the 12g basket in the Vibiemme:

Grind directly into PF with cut down yogurt cup*, moving PF to distribute, about 18 - 20g.**
Gentle Side to Side shake to distribute and level.
ONE gentle rap on counter to compact slightly.
Down dose slightly with scraper to about 14g. (Rotate the scraper 360° to evenly spread the coffee)
Two or Three gentle raps on counter to level / 'crush the clumps'
Gentle tamp.

Yum!

Variations in combination for different coffees [batches or blends]:

Adjust grinder to suit roast / blend.
Skip first rap on counter and grind finer or [almost never] grind coarser and rap twice.
Change position of scraper to remove more or less coffee.
Adjust brew temp. [Almost never]

Just this morning, I tried Ken's ramekin method and made the worst shots in a very long time, not to mention being at sixes and sevens. The dose was 1g less than I'd typically get, but the agro of futzing with all that hardware is a HUGE impediment to enjoying the coffee. I suppose I could spend a couple of weeks tweaking and honing the mechanics, but I very seriously doubt I'd be any better off. Some here, untasted, have opined that my shots must be 'mediocre'. Current score is tied 5 : 5 for gShots*** between YHS and the baristas at Intelligentsia / 49th Parallel / Caffe Luxxe / Discovery Coffee / Koffee Klatch et al. As further testament to the efficacy of the technique, when I first tried a bottomless PF for a few weeks, I got bored and thought "Wot a wank!" It was not until the Tamper Road Show that I first had a sprite with the BPF and that was only with the most radically curved tampers.

Taste! Taste! Taste! and damn the numbers!

*The only modification in years is the addition of the cut down yogurt cup. It's the only change that made any improvement: Not the taste, just dosing mechanics.
**You want coffee above the rim after the level shake and first rap. I'd rather dump coffee in the knock box than shots in the sink
***In almost 40 years, prior to the Vibiemme the score was 0 : 3 in favor of the baristas

[RapidCoffee]

That's what I was doing yesterday, i.e., using the deeper ridgeless 18+ grams basket with a lower dose of 15 grams. There was a lot of headspace, but the pours were easy. I used a scale for dosing and didn't intentionally change my distribution / tamping routine.

I've also been experimenting with lower doses, and I'm not convinced that it's improving my double pours. Thus far, the most noticeable effect of downdosing doubles is a slightly wetter puck. But I do prefer the taste of downdosed triples. I'm not a big fan of triple baskets, but I have enjoyed using the triple basket for iced coffee this summer. (I consider the 18g ridgeless "double" to be a small triple basket).

[HB]

So why has the dose, level and tamp routine become so prevalent even though it often results is very large doses?

Taste! Taste! Taste! and damn the numbers!

I think the answer is the same: It's enhanced consistency that led to the popular dosage amounts, not the other way around. Prominent cafes and their baristas refined their technique using volume. The baskets they selected were most consistently dosed to around 17-18 grams.

Although it may appear I'm a strong advocate for "numbers," more accurately I advocate attention to consistency, using whatever means work best for you. What works for a seasoned home barista of 10+ years isn't what I would suggest for someone with less than a week of experience. The Stockfleths Move for Dummies video is directed at new owners who want to experience early success, not because it's "thee way" to do things, but because anyone with opposable thumbs and a whit of intelligence can master it with 30 minutes practice. When I'm testing equipment, I will revert to super precision mode, but I don't bother with such machinations most of the time. For me, it's good to alternate between Zen and precision mode (Exercises for tuning your barista techniques elaborates on this point).

Some here, untasted, have opined that my shots must be 'mediocre'.

I would never say one way or the other without tasting. My evaluation of my own espresso moved markedly downward as I gained experience as a sensory judge. I have no qualms about rating my average espresso a 3.0 to 3.5, which is around the midpoint of regional competitors. A barista needs to pull 3.5+ espressos to have any hope of advancing to the second round of the nationals and 4.0+ consistently to advance to the finals (refer to What does your typical espresso rate? for more).

[k7qz]

The lowest I can consistently volume dose with stock Faema-style baskets is 15 grams. Below that threshold I have to do a "WDT fluff" to do a proper redistribute, though based on your comments and others, I may be able to dispense with this by grinding even finer and tamping lighter.

I'd bet that you'll find that you can indeed dispense with the "fluff" Dan. To my astonishment, I have been able to do this very thing. It's amazing but it just seems to work: weigh the espresso dose, dump it into the PF basket, light tap, tap on the mat to settle the grounds (no particular distribution per se), light tamp, lock in and pull the shot. Simple is better, right?

But I do prefer the taste of downdosed triples.

Rapid: You're reading my mind. I've been toying with the idea of next trying downdosed triple basket shots. Did I read you correctly in that you're pulling 18 gram shots in triple baskets?

[another_jim]

A couple of clarifications:

Filling a basket to the rim with fingerswipe dosing is updosing. The method was invented by top American cafes to get consistent dosing without using the doser and stale ground coffee. It also allowed them to make a punchier shot for the overwhelming proportion of milk drinks they served. Given that weighing grinds is slow, a grind that is timed, coupled with a curved swiper as illustrated in prior posts, is probably the most efficient and commercially viable way to achieve consistent doses at lowered amounts.

Every double basket out there is designed for 12 or 14 grams, and every single basket for 6 or 7. These weights will create pucks well below the top of the basket, since the idea is to leave a lot of clearance for the puck to expand. Companies who produce very deep baskets, like LM, Cimbali, and Faema, believe a very large head space is required, companies that produce shallower ones like NS or Rancilio, do not. It has absolutely nothing to do with the dose they recommend. That is always 6 to 7 and 12 to 14 grams.

In my experience, headspace is an independent variable from dose. I find it overwhelmingly important on the Elektra and (ironically) Rancilio groups, and less important (equally ironically) on the LM or Faema groups.

One should stick with a minimum head space appropriate to the group; one should change dose to match the coffee. If a coffee requires a very high dose, this may mean using a very deep triple basket to ensure adequate head space.

[Ken Fox]

Thanks for the clarification Ken. I am beginning to see exactly what you are talking about now.

So why has the dose, level and tamp routine become so prevalent even though it often results is very large doses?

Or in other words why has updosing become so popular?

I think that Jim has already hit on the major points. I would add that Schomer has been a major force and this is how he did it. That does not, however, make it right.

ken

[Ken Fox]

Gotta say the idea of a fixed 14g dose may not be the best idea.

Dose for the best taste. Full Stop !!!

12g basket and scraper.
<image>
I've had the scraper for many, many years, but saw them at Cookin' Stuff in Torrance CA a few months back.

Here's my routine for the 12g basket in the Vibiemme:

Grind directly into PF with cut down yogurt cup*, moving PF to distribute, about 18 - 20g.**
Gentle Side to Side shake to distribute and level.
ONE gentle rap on counter to compact slightly.
Down dose slightly with scraper to about 14g. (Rotate the scraper 360° to evenly spread the coffee)
Two or Three gentle raps on counter to level / 'crush the clumps'
Gentle tamp.

Yum!

Variations in combination for different coffees [batches or blends]:

Adjust grinder to suit roast / blend.
Skip first rap on counter and grind finer or [almost never] grind coarser and rap twice.
Change position of scraper to remove more or less coffee.
Adjust brew temp. [Almost never]

Just this morning, I tried Ken's ramekin method and made the worst shots in a very long time, not to mention being at sixes and sevens. The dose was 1g less than I'd typically get, but the agro of futzing with all that hardware is a HUGE impediment to enjoying the coffee. I suppose I could spend a couple of weeks tweaking and honing the mechanics, but I very seriously doubt I'd be any better off. Some here, untasted, have opined that my shots must be 'mediocre'. Current score is tied 5 : 5 for gShots*** between YHS and the baristas at Intelligentsia / 49th Parallel / Caffe Luxxe / Discovery Coffee / Koffee Klatch et al. As further testament to the efficacy of the technique, when I first tried a bottomless PF for a few weeks, I got bored and thought "Wot a wank!" It was not until the Tamper Road Show that I first had a sprite with the BPF and that was only with the most radically curved tampers.

Taste! Taste! Taste! and damn the numbers!

*The only modification in years is the addition of the cut down yogurt cup. It's the only change that made any improvement: Not the taste, just dosing mechanics.
**You want coffee above the rim after the level shake and first rap. I'd rather dump coffee in the knock box than shots in the sink
***In almost 40 years, prior to the Vibiemme the score was 0 : 3 in favor of the baristas

I'm not advocating a "fixed 14g dose," although I doubt I'll ever again use doses above 16 or 16.5g. My opinion has undergone a seismic change. If you need to put 18 or 20g of some blend into the PF in order to get a satisfying shot, then as far as I am concerned, the blend sucks. It is akin to rejecting a delicately prepared piece of wild salmon because you like"blackened farm-raised salmon." Or preferring an overly sweet and alcoholic Zinfandel to a well made red Burgundy. Sorry, but that is my view at this point in time.

12g is going to be right for some coffee, 14 for some others, and maybe 16 for a few, although I think most could be done at 12-15g and one would have very good results.

My regimen of weighing shots takes me less than 2 minutes additional in a WHOLE DAY's worth of shots, so I would not describe it as being even a minor PITA. The shot to shot consistency I am getting compensates for any minor inconveniences. But, precise dosing is much more important in a 14g shot than it is in a 20g shot. And yes, 20g is what a lot of us (including myself) were using on a regular basis because depending on the coffee and humidity and grind setting, that is what our baskets would easily hold. If you doubt this, then you really do need to buy an accurate digital 1/10th gram scale, to see for yourself how much coffee you have been using. I was surprised, myself.

The amount of coffee in the PF basket overwhelms all other factors in making espresso. If you are off by a gram on a 14 g. dose, this is more significant than being off a gram on a 20g dose, as a percentage of the mass of the coffee. And, it will show in your espressomaking. So, if you are going to downdose, then the dose better be precisely measured or your shots will suffer.

I am reminded of a conversation I had with Aaron Delazzer in Vancouver, in June. He is now the "Director of Coffee" for Ethical Bean, a Western Canadian roaster, and he is a former coffee roaster, barista trainer, and columnist on CG. Aaron related to me how he had stopped drinking espresso altogether for a couple of years, because he found it just such an in-your-face and excessive beverage the way we have been doing it in N. America. He related his experience to me in visiting Italy with his wife recently. He said that Italian baristas act as though they want you to be their customer for the rest of your life, so they serve you something that won't kick you in the face and do you in. They use much lesser doses of coffee in their PFs.

In N. America we seem more interested in getting the money out of you this quarter, and the future will just take care of itself

ken

[k7qz]

I am reminded of a conversation I had with Aaron Delazzer in Vancouver, in June. He is now the "Director of Coffee" for Ethical Bean, a Western Canadian roaster, and he is a former coffee roaster, barista trainer, and columnist on CG. Aaron related to me how he had stopped drinking espresso altogether for a couple of years, because he found it just such an in-your-face and excessive beverage the way we have been doing it in N. America. He related his experience to me in visiting Italy with his wife recently. He said that Italian baristas act as though they want you to be their customer for the rest of your life, so they serve you something that won't kick you in the face and do you in. They use much lesser doses of coffee in their PFs.

In N. America we seem more interested in getting the money out of you this quarter, and the future will just take care of itself

ken

Good Morning Ken:

I wonder if this might also be a function of what the local/regional market demands. Unlike yourself, I have never been to Italy but it is my impression that the Italians actually drink espresso- as in shots. Whereas, here in the states the typical consumer in a coffee shop orders a nightmare amalgamation of milk, syrup, whipped cream and sprinkles. Updosing required with its resultant in-your-face shot to even taste a hint of coffee. Just a guess...

Case in point: I was in the best coffee shop in our part of the state last night and asked the barista (whom, in his defense, appeared to be new) for a double ristretto. He in turn asked me if I wanted syrup in that...

[cafeIKE]

I have no qualms about rating my average espresso a 3.0 to 3.5, which is around the midpoint of regional competitors.

Sadly, this morning I ran out of Discovery Coffee's Espresso Blend and pulled a shot from a home roast. 2.0 would be charitable

I'm not advocating a "fixed 14g dose,"

Methinks thou dost prostest too much. My post was to the original "using a 14g dose by weight"

If you need to put 18 or 20g of some blend into the PF...

18-20 less 5-6 into the knock box = 12-15 in the basket, repeatedly. It's extravagant, to be sure, but the extra goes in the compost. You should see my roses!

It is akin to rejecting a delicately prepared piece of wild salmon because you like"blackened farm-raised salmon." Or preferring an overly sweet and alcoholic Zinfandel to a well made red Burgundy. Sorry, but that is my view at this point in time.

Is your implication that every one else has a palate inferior to thine. If so, I hope your Burgundy is "Hearty" I'll wager you've never had wild salmon. Unless you tasted a Coho in the 1950s cooked within an hour of landing, you've never tasted wild salmon. What passes for wild salmon today, we used as crab bait! And don't mention crab or lobster until you've plucked them from the ocean and dropped them into the pot yourself. Those poor buggers in display tanks pale by comparison.

12g is going to be right for some coffee, 14 for some others, and maybe 16 for a few, although I think most could be done at 12-15g and one would have very good results.

This differs from dosing for taste

If you doubt this, then you really do need to buy an accurate digital 1/10th gram scale, to see for yourself how much coffee you have been using.

I know exactly how much. The precise amount that makes the best shot. For years, I've had an Escali 200gx0.1g Liberta, iirc, now relegated to entertainment. Using my method is ±250mg without all the falderol. Close enough for Rock 'n' Roll Here's an experiment for you. Precisely weigh your doses and pull a series of identically timed shots. Start the timer the instant the first drop hits the cup and let it run for a fixed interval. How close is the weight of the series? Or pull a series of shots to some identical weight. How close is the time? How close is the taste? If there is any variation, the precise weighing of the dose is all for naught.

He said that Italian baristas act as though they want you to be their customer for the rest of your life, so they serve you something that won't kick you in the face and do you in. They use much lesser doses of coffee in their PFs.

Had my first espresso almost 40 years ago from an Italian girlfriend, who would be mightily offended at your implication she wanted me as her 'customer' I'm reminded of a time when I ordered an 'espresso' in America and it came in a 16oz mug with ZERO crema! Astounded, I blurted "What's THIS?!?!?!" Getting espresso elsewhere, when used to Italian, is probably very similar to a Yorkshireman ordering a beer or fish and chips in America. Conversely, the first burger I had in Glasgow was somewhat of a surprise!

Only after the purchase of the 12g basket and flatter shower screen, did the Vibiemme truly come into it's own. cpl593h twigged me to what was wrong with a comment that he felt 15g baskets might be too deep when used with the lightly roasted coffees I prefer. Given the advanced state of your dotage, I understand if you don't remember that I mentioned this to you at SCAA that I'd done just that and the improvement was remarkable. Perhaps you were distracted by all the smoke from Jeffery's HotTop demo

After 'ignorantly' pulling shots for many years that by most guests account were quite delicious, the coffee internet fupped my espresso for quite some time as I tried ridiculous 30# tamps, 18g+ doses et al. in the mistaken belief others knew more and the techniques would 'improve' the shots.

All this concentration on numbers reminds of the player in the Cincinnati Kid that calculates the odds for every bet and still loses.

[TimEggers]

Hello Mr. Eales I should clarify that I typically start at a 14g dose then go from there based on taste. Sorry for the confusion.