What options for Elektra A3 money?

[Stuggi]

I'm getting a job soon to fund my espresso addiction, and I'm looking to (someday) upgrade to an Elektra A3, but for that kind of money, I really have to consider all the options. So what else should I look at?

[Stuggi]

No one? Seriously? well, I'll better list some that I've seen then to start this off...

La Spaziale S1 MkII
VBM Domobar Super
QM Vetrano

[HB]

So what else should I look at?

I would pick the A3 over your suggestions. If I didn't want to waste water for flushing it, the double boiler S1 would make the short list.

No one? Seriously?

The La Marzocco GS3? Elektra raised their prices in the US to put it in the same balllpark.

[da gino]

Is the A3 in the ballpark with those other machines in Europe? It is about twice their price over here in the US from every vendor I've seen on the web. It does sound like a great machine, though.

[mhoy]

The Elektra T1 of course.

Mark

[Ken Fox]

The Cimbali Junior is a great machine. It is easily modified with a PID and a delay timer if one wishes to do so, otherwise as a stock machine it is very nice, so nice in fact that I have two of them

ken

[mhoy]

Since this is high end, why not a Synesso espresso machine?

Mark

[shadowfax]

The Cimbali Jr. was also the first machine I thought of as an alternate option similar in price, size, and build/cup quality to the A3. But I don't have any direct experience. I would take the A3 on looks and its "more standard" 58 mm portafilter.

I don't Vetrano or the Domobar Super are even remotely in the class of an A3 or Cimbali in terms of build quality or stability (although they are both exceptional home machines). For the money you'd be spending here in the US (~$4500 USD), I would recommend saving your money and getting a consumer class double boiler (Alex Duetto, DoubleDomo, La Spaziale S1 [your suggestion], DC Mini), or spending more and getting a La Marzocco/Synesso. I personally think I'd spring for a used Synesso 1 group, or restore a paddle group GS long before getting the GS3. But that is my DIY attitude coming through...

I would say that the convenience/cost ratio is going to be highest with a consumer class dual boiler machine, and that's what I'd go for. Save the other 2 grand for a titan grinder...

[mhoy]

In this price range there is also the Nuova Simonelli Appia, but looks wise kinda bland for me.

Mark

[zin1953]

In the land of fantasy single-groups . . . (with current retail US Prices where available):

• Kees van der Westen Mirage Veloce
• Synesso Cyncra
• La Marzocco GS (preferably w/paddle wheel group)
• Faema E61 Jubilée A/1 Espresso Machine, $7,060.00
• Faema E61 Legend S/1 Espresso Machine, $5,880.00
• Elektra "Sixties" T1, $4,837.00 (Gawd, am I happy i bought mine when I did!)
• Elektra "Sixties" A3, $4,513.00

[SylvainMtl]

In the land of fantasy single-groups . . . (with current retail US Prices where available):

• Kees van der Westen Mirage Veloce
• Synesso Cyncra
• La Marzocco GS (preferably w/paddle wheel group)
• Faema E61 Jubilée A/1 Espresso Machine, $7,060.00
• Faema E61 Legend S/1 Espresso Machine, $5,880.00
• Elektra "Sixties" T1, $4,837.00 (Gawd, am I happy i bought mine when I did!)
• Elektra "Sixties" A3, $4,513.00

After having had doubles from a Mirage triplette, an E61 Legend and an A3 over the week-end I must give the edge to the e61 group. Allright, this might have something to do with the fact that both the barista working the Mirage and the Legend finished in the top 7 of the last barista canadian championship.

Nevertheless, the owner of the Mirage worked in the last two years on a Syncra, an FB/80 and a GB/5 but still went with the HX Mirage and he said he doesn't regret it one bit. The e61 gh is much more flexible in terms of dosing. Compared to the Elektra, I just can't get over the little flushes he has to do. He programmed the flush to last about 2 seconds... I really need to start looking for a thermosyphon restrictor.

One last thing, of the machines listed above, the Elektra is probably the only one with an onboard pump, which might make it noisier than the others.

ps. I still got plenty of love for my A3 , but just wanted to make some reservation as to having it listed with those machines.

[AndyS]

La Marzocco GS (preferably w/paddle wheel group)

Hi Jason:

FYI, Mississippi river boats have paddle wheels, but the GS has a paddle group (despite what some people mistakenly call it).

[zin1953]

Andy, what do you want from me??? I just got back from New Orleans!

[AndyS]

Andy, what do you want from me??? I just got back from New Orleans!

OK, that's a pretty good excuse, so I'll cut you some slack.

[Ken Fox]

These sorts of discussions have a tendency to give the aspiring home user very little useful information. With that in mind, I'll give a very biased short primer on how a consumer should approach this sort of purchase if they want to maximize their results for unit of money spent.

With espresso machines one can achieve ever increasing levels of shot consistency when one goes up to a level of a solid e-61 HX machine; beyond this level, diminishing returns set in and the more you spend the more your returns will diminish. I always have felt that my two Cimbali Juniors were absurd overkill in a domestic kitchen, but reading this thread shows that the sky is the limit if you want to throw money around.

Beyond the level of a solid e-61 machine, every incremental dollar will be much better applied to buying a better grinder. By a "better grinder," I mean either a commercial conical, a Cimbali Max hybrid, or a planar grinder with HUGE burrs. The Cimbali Max is the cheapest of these choices and probably is the grinder out of the group that will both look best and fit most easily into a domestic kitchen.

Once you have an espresso machine as good as a solid e-61, and a very good grinder such as above, every incremental dollar spent on espresso making equipment is going to yield you a return in the cup of about 0.01 cents worth (at best). Having acquired equipment of this level, your incremental dollars will be best spent on either buying truly badass coffee, or setting up a roasting setup yourself that with lots of effort will allow you to produce high end roasted coffee.

All the rest of this type of discussion is interesting, but is not going to get you anywhere if your real goal is what comes out of the portafilter and goes into your espresso cup.

ken

[Marshall]

I'm beginning to think more and more that we should add "training" to the investment equation. Here's a video made by someone to show off the runny, yellow, nearly crema-less shots and stiff foam he makes with his Olympia Maximatic (over $4,000):



Maybe the best return on the dollar for a newbie or intermediate home barista is good training?

[shadowfax]

Man, Marshall, you're awful. I can understand making fun of someone's crappy coffee, but making fun of the severely ADD? That's not like you!

[IMAWriter]

Holy smokes, Marshall! That coffee looks like Starbies!...only better.

I think you make a valid point concerning training. A local roaster here in the Nashville area has occasional classes. I am planning to attend, mainly for milk skills, as I don't do that very often.
I also agree with Ken on this one, his point being the diminishing returns thing. I'm a pretty good home roaster, but great pro roasted coffees such as espresso Dolce, Redline, Toscano, etc really make my Cremina sing. Kens point there, paraphrased.
Back on topic, as a former HX machine owner, I admit getting a consistent result was pretty easy, once the flush routine became routine. Still, I was going to purchase a double boiler, but the Cremina got in the way.

[zin1953]

Man, Marshall, you're awful. I can understand making fun of someone's crappy coffee, but making fun of the severely ADD? That's not like you!

Uh, Nicholas? Don't you mean OCD? Doncha? You think you mean OCD? I think you mean OCD. Don't you think you mean OCD?

Marshall . . . either barista instructions, or a class on how to make worthwhile videos on YouTube!

Seriously, I know I would benefit from barista training, that the quality of my espresso would improve, and it's already pretty gosh-darned good as it is! But I have no doubt that 25 years with a Gaggia has left with with some bad, or at least "sloppy," habits that -- well, I'm sure the Elektra has forced me to "tighten up" my skills, but there is considerable room for improvement, I'm sure.

Cheers,
Jason

[IMAWriter]

Zin...OCD is NO laughing matter, NO laughing matter, no lau...
Regarding your switch, funny, but doesn't it seem that a more expensive, responsive machine (your switch from Gaggia to Elektra) would allow MORE leeway for a "looser" technique. isn't that the POINT of 3k and above machines?
A-Waaaaaaaay back when I had a Starbies Estro Profi (with no crema enhancer) EVERY little detail had to be perfect to get a decent shot. With Anita, I pretty much grind/half-as*ed Stockflethed, tamped 30# or so, and Voila, 95% of the time, excellent results, no squirts, etc.
So, your premise that the more expensive you get, the MORE intensive the prep would seem counter intuitive, at the worst a true case of diminishing returns.
If I ever get lucky/rich enough to get the sort of machines discussed here, it would be for one reason only....to get the best dern espresso possible with the least amount of angst!