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What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?

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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Breaddrink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:49 am

One machine I'm having trouble finding out about, yet seems to be possibly an interesting route to take because of it's fundamental lack of brass eagles and such, is the gensaco capucio. The simple model in either red of chrome.
Pardon the amazon clone link, but I can hardly find these listed anywhere else.

http://www.filterwater.com/store/...-ItemId-B00028A7KI

Does anyone have any experience of these or stats for the thing? While unsure if I even want a spring mechanism or not, it does indeed have one, and that same fairly hefty group size the larger models sport judging from the looks of it.

Could this be a good cheaper way in, bypassing all the chrome and pomp? (Not that I particularly want to you understand - but my wallet does).

I can't find out very much about Gensaco products, but they look to be rather interesting in their heft and value aspects.
What is thought of them?
The red model shown seems to sell for around 500 dollars new.

Many thanks.

Rob.
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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by hperry on Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:26 am

Go to https://securewschent01.websitecomplete.com/vanelis/shop/showDept.asp?dept=240 or http://www.pontevecchiosrl.it/ing/frame.html and look up the Ponte Vecchio which I believe is the same machine. The Lusso, its bigger brother, has a 3 Liter Boiler.

Breaddrink wrote:One machine I'm having trouble finding out about, yet seems to be possibly an interesting route to take because of it's fundamental lack of brass eagles and such, is the gensaco capucio. The simple model in either red of chrome.
Pardon the amazon clone link, but I can hardly find these listed anywhere else.

http://www.filterwater.com/store/...-ItemId-B00028A7KI

Does anyone have any experience of these or stats for the thing? While unsure if I even want a spring mechanism or not, it does indeed have one, and that same fairly hefty group size the larger models sport judging from the looks of it.

Could this be a good cheaper way in, bypassing all the chrome and pomp? (Not that I particularly want to you understand - but my wallet does).

I can't find out very much about Gensaco products, but they look to be rather interesting in their heft and value aspects.
What is thought of them?
The red model shown seems to sell for around 500 dollars new.

Many thanks.

Rob.
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Posts: 136
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Location: Seattle Washington
www.greatinfusions.com: espresso cups and barista gear, showroom in Santa Cruz
www.greatinfusions.com: espresso cups and barista gear, showroom in Santa Cruz

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Breaddrink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 am

I'm glad you mentioned that, hperry.
While cruising the sites looking for info on the capucio I turned up the same thing myself. I can't find a price on the smaller unit in US dollars.
*edit* found them in sale items. https://securewschent01.websiteco...Prod.asp?prod=1011 - 200 dollars less than gensaco's chrome model)
The larger 3 liter model is available for 695 under the vanelis name, and is by looks anyway the identical Gensaco product only 300 dollars less.
It looks more like the cremina olympia in a spring model...Very interesting. The group on the thing looks enormous.

https://securewschent01.websiteco...wProd.asp?prod=943
Is Gensaco yet another of those brands who simply rebadges and sells for higher? I don't think I've seen this happen so much since imported power tools.

http://www.gensaco.com/homuse.html
The gensaco version is seen there, priced as mentioned.

Rob.
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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by hperry on Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:57 am

Smaller unit is sold locally in Seattle for $450. Just for kicks, it looks like Olympia once had a version of this machine http://www.olympia-express.ch/default.htm. Look under "Service and Support" for the Olympia Club.

Breaddrink wrote:I'm glad you mentioned that, hperry.
While cruising the sites looking for info on the capucio I turned up the same thing myself. I can't find a price on the smaller unit in US dollars.
*edit* found them in sale items. https://securewschent01.websiteco...Prod.asp?prod=1011 - 200 dollars less than gensaco's chrome model)
The larger 3 liter model is available for 695 under the vanelis name, and is by looks anyway the identical Gensaco product only 300 dollars less.
It looks more like the cremina olympia in a spring model...Very interesting. The group on the thing looks enormous.

https://securewschent01.websiteco...wProd.asp?prod=943
Is Gensaco yet another of those brands who simply rebadges and sells for higher? I don't think I've seen this happen so much since imported power tools.

http://www.gensaco.com/homuse.html
The gensaco version is seen there, priced as mentioned.

Rob.
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Posts: 136
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Location: Seattle Washington

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Breaddrink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:59 am

hperry wrote:Smaller unit is sold locally in Seattle for $450. Just for kicks, it looks like Olympia once had a version of this machine http://www.olympia-express.ch/default.htm. Look under "Service and Support" for the Olympia Club.


Dear god, I can see a conspiracy theory brewing.

...Err, pardon the pun.

It's very similar. Any idea what they sold these for?

Rob.
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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by hperry on Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:32 am

No idea on the price, although I'd guess probably about half of whatever the then retail price of the Cremina was. Re: your earlier comment I don't believe there's much difference between the grouphead size on the Ponte Vecchio and the Cremina - both are actually reasonably small machines. Because there is a local retail outfit that seels them I've had coffee prepared in a Ponte Vecchio Lusso (also used to be called the SAMA I think). Really quite good.

By the way here is a website for the club that gives a little more technical information about the machine. http://home.planet.nl/~rjeroenv/hardware/repair_project/olyclub.html, I don't think its changed much of the years.

Breaddrink wrote:
hperry wrote:Smaller unit is sold locally in Seattle for $450. Just for kicks, it looks like Olympia once had a version of this machine http://www.olympia-express.ch/default.htm. Look under "Service and Support" for the Olympia Club.


Dear god, I can see a conspiracy theory brewing.

...Err, pardon the pun.

It's very similar. Any idea what they sold these for?

Rob.
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Posts: 136
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Location: Seattle Washington

Sama/PV Lusso/Gensaco

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Dr Jim on Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:11 pm

I currently own the PV 'Lusso' machine and have gotten pretty decent results from it - I bought it from Vanelli's espresso in CA because it was the closest available machine to the Olympia Club which I used to own, and still regret selling. While the smaller machine is pretty cheap, and does use the same grouphead, the added power, thermal stability, and hot water tap make the Lusso a better deal IMHO.

Here's a quote from a msg I posted to the Sweet Maria's list:

"The Sama, Riveria, Ponte Veccio, Olympia 'Club,' and a host of other machines are all direct descendants of a Bezzeria design from the early '50's.

I used to own an Olympia Club - which IMHO was much better than the Cremina - but I stupidly sold it in a moment of impoverished frenzy. Which rash action I still regret, since there appears to be far more money in the world than decent espresso machines.

Here's a shot of our Ponte Vecchio:

Image

More information available from the manufacturer:

http://www.pontevecchiosrl.it/

All of these machines have a roughly 3-litre boiler lying sideways (as opposed to most consumer HX machines which mount their boilers vertically) with a steam valve to the left and a hot water tap on the right side. The grouphead is a spring-loaded affair with typically a 49-51mm portafilter -except for the Bezzeria, which was 53mm - and uses a fairly deep basket like the Elektra.

Given good beans, and proper Grind, Tamp, and Extraction techniques, these machines can produce a lovely 1.5oz shot, although it's pretty difficult to get as much crema as a good HX machine will put out. Their steaming is typically excellent, although using a single-hole steam tip does take some practice - but, unlike the Pavoni's, you can steam and pour simultaneously

Initial temperature stability is quite good, the grouphead is bolted directly to the boiler, and there's enough water and metal mass to pull 3-4 shots before the group gets too hot to use - this is the major complaint about these machines, that they overheat relatively quickly, and there's no easy temperature 'fix' other than shutting them down to cool.

There are several other minor annoyances which underscore the age of this design, there's no separate water tank - you must fill the boiler when it's cold, which requires you to raise the cup-warming tray and unscrew a small knob on top of the boiler. You soon learn to check the boiler sight gauge before going to bed, since it's a major PITA to discover you've run out of water in the middle of a pour, and unscrewing the knob from a hot boiler is an instant lesion in excruciating.

There's also no vacuum breaker on the boiler, so you need to bleed off the 'false pressure' two or three time before the machine is really up to temperature and stable. It would be pretty simple to fit a breaker into the steam line, but I've been lazy and haven't gotten around to it yet.

My biggest complaint with all of the consumer-grade lever machines is that just don't hold enough coffee. I've been spoiled by the 58mm commercial-style baskets, especially the Marzocco 'triple' baskets, into which I can stuff 21gms of grind - it's a struggle to get 14gm into the Ponte Vecchio. 14gm is enough for a 1 to 1.5oz pour, but just doesn't quite cut it for a full 2oz shot - the richness and chewiness that I long for just disappear, and it's way to easy to get sour/fusty/mouldy notes from the smaller baskets.
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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Breaddrink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:22 pm

Many thanks, Jim.
That's very informative.

It seems to be quite a bargain machine all in all. Do you think you would purchase one again over the more name brands that are spoken of? Pavoni, elektra, etc?

Rob.
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Re: Sama/PV Lusso/Gensaco

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by hperry on Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:49 am

I'm interested - was the Olympia Club any different from the PV or just another iteration of the same machine. Appreciate your comments on the coffee - its what I'm experiencing with the Cremina almost exactly. I have to say though that there's a lot to learn about "doing it right" and I've only pulled about 15 shots - so that doesn't qualify as experience. It does surprise me that with relatively little crema that the shots taste as good as they do - although so far my experience is that they are "thin."

Dr Jim wrote:I currently own the PV 'Lusso' machine and have gotten pretty decent results from it - I bought it from Vanelli's espresso in CA because it was the closest available machine to the Olympia Club which I used to own, and still regret selling. While the smaller machine is pretty cheap, and does use the same grouphead, the added power, thermal stability, and hot water tap make the Lusso a better deal IMHO.

Here's a quote from a msg I posted to the Sweet Maria's list:

"The Sama, Riveria, Ponte Veccio, Olympia 'Club,' and a host of other machines are all direct descendants of a Bezzeria design from the early '50's.

I used to own an Olympia Club - which IMHO was much better than the Cremina - but I stupidly sold it in a moment of impoverished frenzy. Which rash action I still regret, since there appears to be far more money in the world than decent espresso machines.

Here's a shot of our Ponte Vecchio:

<image>

More information available from the manufacturer:

http://www.pontevecchiosrl.it/

All of these machines have a roughly 3-litre boiler lying sideways (as opposed to most consumer HX machines which mount their boilers vertically) with a steam valve to the left and a hot water tap on the right side. The grouphead is a spring-loaded affair with typically a 49-51mm portafilter -except for the Bezzeria, which was 53mm - and uses a fairly deep basket like the Elektra.

Given good beans, and proper Grind, Tamp, and Extraction techniques, these machines can produce a lovely 1.5oz shot, although it's pretty difficult to get as much crema as a good HX machine will put out. Their steaming is typically excellent, although using a single-hole steam tip does take some practice - but, unlike the Pavoni's, you can steam and pour simultaneously

Initial temperature stability is quite good, the grouphead is bolted directly to the boiler, and there's enough water and metal mass to pull 3-4 shots before the group gets too hot to use - this is the major complaint about these machines, that they overheat relatively quickly, and there's no easy temperature 'fix' other than shutting them down to cool.

There are several other minor annoyances which underscore the age of this design, there's no separate water tank - you must fill the boiler when it's cold, which requires you to raise the cup-warming tray and unscrew a small knob on top of the boiler. You soon learn to check the boiler sight gauge before going to bed, since it's a major PITA to discover you've run out of water in the middle of a pour, and unscrewing the knob from a hot boiler is an instant lesion in excruciating.

There's also no vacuum breaker on the boiler, so you need to bleed off the 'false pressure' two or three time before the machine is really up to temperature and stable. It would be pretty simple to fit a breaker into the steam line, but I've been lazy and haven't gotten around to it yet.

My biggest complaint with all of the consumer-grade lever machines is that just don't hold enough coffee. I've been spoiled by the 58mm commercial-style baskets, especially the Marzocco 'triple' baskets, into which I can stuff 21gms of grind - it's a struggle to get 14gm into the Ponte Vecchio. 14gm is enough for a 1 to 1.5oz pour, but just doesn't quite cut it for a full 2oz shot - the richness and chewiness that I long for just disappear, and it's way to easy to get sour/fusty/mouldy notes from the smaller baskets.
Hal Perry
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Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by Dr Jim on Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:09 pm

HPerry -

BTW, would the 'H' stand for Hal Perry?

I wrote you a reply to your Cremina post - which for some obscure reason didn't appear to make it onto the board - sigh!

I'd be delighted for the chance to pull a few shots on your Cremina, using my own blend which I know produces a stupid amount of crema.

So, consider yourself, and you machine, invited to the Lab of Doom down here in Darkest Ballard, where you could also play with a La Peppina and a 58mm commercial lever machine and see what sort of shots a Brass Elephant can produce...

PM me for directions and to set up a time - it takes an hour or so for the big machine to warm up....

One side note, based on my Pavoni experiences, crema really doesn't appear during the first pull, you need do do a 2nd 'short pull' where you don't use a full stroke to get anything like a decent crema layer, but due care and attention is needed to avoid over-extracting from the undersized baskets.

The Club is very close to the PV Lusso - the steam and water valves were mounted on the front (PV has them on the side), but the grouphead, boiler, and pressurestat are almost identical, except that the Club filled from a boiler extension which came up through the cup-warming tray.

Cheers

Jim
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Ponte Vecchios in Seattle???

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by peacecup on Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:41 pm

Hi, this is my first post. I've been considering a lever machine for some time. hperry said the PV's were available in Seattle - can you provide me with the name of the retailers?

Happy Pulls
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Re: Ponte Vecchios in Seattle???

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by hperry on Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:12 pm

The Good Coffee Company
(206) 622-5602

has them.

peacecup wrote:Hi, this is my first post. I've been considering a lever machine for some time. hperry said the PV's were available in Seattle - can you provide me with the name of the retailers?

Happy Pulls
Hal Perry
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I bought one

Link to "What is thought of Gensaco products like the Capucio?"by peacecup on Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:32 pm

Thanks for the info. I visited the Good Coffee Company, and they are really nice people. I wound up buying the PV Export from Vanelis because I didn't want to carry it back myself.

I'll post a mini-review of it once I've managed to pull a decent shot.
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