What is the latest on the storage of greens? - Page 2

[miKe mcKoffee]

That's easy to do.
Roast it all within the optimal window for the green.

The optimal window for the green will vary depending on how it's stored. Store in cotton bags in high humidity high temperature without air conditioning during the summer months like the Gulf States and its window would be short indeed. Store in closed ziplock bags same place even shorter. I've known quality extreme serious micro-roasters that store their greens in temperature and humidity controlled environments. Not for multi-year storage purposes, but so the quality will be maintained through to the next crop cycle.

[malachi]

Why is it so great to be able to extend the green to the next availability of that same bean?

First of all... I'm sorry, but there is no way that it's going to truly be optimal for the entire year.
Second... the green is going to change year to year.
Third... I would rather eat perfect strawberries for two days out of the year and remember them for the rest than taint that memory with inferior strawberries the rest of the year. There is always something at its peak.

[malachi]

Which brings up the next question, what is the prime age for green? Understanding that there will be differences in shelf life from origin to origin, what is a good rule of thumb?

Different with different beans.

Most of the top Yirgs I've had this year (for example) have already lost all their floral notes and most of their acidity.
On the other hand, last year's El Salvador Las Nubitas seemed solid for around 10 months.

I have a theory that the lifespan of a green bean depends on a number of factors beyond (but obviously including) storage environment. I'd say these would include growing elevation, type of processing and moisture content.

[miKe mcKoffee]

There is always something at its peak.

My main point was the importance of storage conditions. Take that something at its peak, store it improperly and it can go bad in weeks or days not months.

[SL28ave]

I have to disagree with some of you here, at least for now. Jute-stored green coffee changes by the week, admittedly some slightly slower than others.The only GREAT jute-stored coffees currently peaking I personally think are select lots of Rwanda, 2nd harvest Colombia, Bolivia and Brazil; the lots haven't even been imported yet, to the best of my knowledge. I think it'll be rather "respectful" to capture and keep their beautiful impression for as long as possible too. No gimmicks, just my serious opinion.

Our cupping table is open to whomever. Because of attending cupping sessions over the past couple years at our facility there are other small roasters freezing their premium green now, and importers freezing their green samples too. It's all on the cupping table.

There are many other great green storage ideas in the works too Though, I don't know if I can reveal them yet. Please, let's all keep an open mind. I take extreme joy in how currently clueless I am about coffee, and what potential lies there.

[malachi]

The only GREAT jute-stored coffees currently peaking I personally think are select lots of Rwanda, 2nd harvest Colombia, Bolivia and Brazil; the lots haven't even been imported yet, to the best of my knowledge.

The Rwandas are here, a few of the Brazils are in the US already and some Colombians arrived last week.
Bolivia is a ways off, of course, as are the bulk of the Brazils.

In addition, I think we're seeing select Nicaraguans at their peak right as well as the top coffees from El Salvador.

And given the list above, I have to confess I'd be perfectly happy drinking nothing but the El Salvador Finca Kilimanjaro, the Rwanda, the Nicaragua Torrez and the new Colombian for the next 2 months.

[SL28ave]

I'm beginning to pinpoint some of the first signs of green decline. One prominent characteristic is a slight acridity, or bitter astringency. This has been one of my key palate lessons this year. I think every connoisseur should learn to perceive the acridity of green decline. And whether they like it is up to them. I think it's unpleasant though. Who here picks up on the acridity, and when in the life of the green? Do you (nobody in particular!) even roast your coffees light enough to see the weekly or monthly aging?

(Chris, I'm in love with some of these Colombians! You probably love the #2. I love the #1 and #15; the #15 is simply a less polished #1 to me. I'd love to see your tasting notes.)

[AndyS]

Alton Brown is genius.

Maybe he is, but not for quick-freezing of strawberries, etc. This is common practice in the food industry, for what, 50 years?

[cannonfodder]

There is BIG difference between tossing something into your chest freezer and what we use in a commercial setting.

At our beef and poultry production facilities, we quick freeze the end product in a cryogenic tunnel, I believe they use liquid nitrogen and the product goes from raw meet to brick hard very quickly (but not too quick, that causes other problems).

I am anxiously awaiting the new Brazils. That is part of the reason I posted the initial question. I have noticed a dramatic drop in quality over the past month in the last of my Brazil. I have been watching the comments on the new offerings and searching for an early bean to fill the gap.

For now, I will order less, drink more, and enjoy the experience.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I've been a proponent of vacuum storing greens and roasts for years. Been meaning to try greens in a home freezer so while vac bagging some newly arrived greens vac bagged and tossed a 1/2# of Moki's Kona in the freezer day before yesterday. Rather than a long term vac & freeze test thinking to just start with a shorter freeze duration, defrost & roast 'em for Sweet Maria's Home Roast List PNW Gathering IV in June along with another batch of non-frozen Moki's of course. That'll provide a large base of taste testers. Will decide then if further testing is warranted.

[naznar]

im late to chat here, but no one ever talks about

temperature, light, and relative humidity, and also moisture
gain and loss- including transfer between bags. depending on how close they are together
appear factors in storage of greens

Just thought id throw that out there, As a room of thumb a cool and dry place
are both good, I am holding my coffee at 64.4 degrees, in order to keep it at 55% relative humidity.
I have no idea what the moisture content of the actual beans are yet, but ive been doing wet ball tests to get
the rel. humidity. fun stuff!

My current theory is to keep the beans stable, and hopefully over time and test roasts I can see how its doing.
-joel

[gchapman]

...merged with similar topic by moderator...


I store my unroasted coffee beans in my garage, which is now below freezing for the first time this winter. Will that damage unroasted green beans?

Geoff

Whoops - I hadn't seen this thread. Thanks for merging!

Seems clear that putting them in the garage for the winter where temps go below - then above freezing frequently CAN'T be good for the beans!

[Rainman]

I'm almost afraid to admit this.. you guys are finding out all my coffee-related faults, and may think I'm a bit of a wingnut, but here goes my confessional-- is it too great a sin to keep greens in zip-lock baggies for < 6 months? They're in a temp-controlled (appx 70 deg F) and low humidity (10-20% on most days) environment?

ahh- I feel better already!

Ray

[another_jim]

I'm almost afraid to admit this.. you guys are finding out all my coffee-related faults, and may think I'm a bit of a wingnut, but here goes my confessional-- is it too great a sin to keep greens in zip-lock baggies for < 6 months? They're in a temp-controlled (appx 70 deg F) and low humidity (10-20% on most days) environment?

A lot of this is overdone. For most coffees storing in baggies, jute, or in whatever else the seller used to hold the beans, will work just fine for a year. Floral and highly fruited coffees will fade, and for these you might consider something more high tech.

[miKe mcKoffee]

A lot of this is overdone. For most coffees storing in baggies, jute, or in whatever else the seller used to hold the beans, will work just fine for a year. Floral and highly fruited coffees will fade, and for these you might consider something more high tech.

I agree to disagree. Personally if a low acidity coffee's fade isn't as noticable doesn't mean it doesn't fade IMO. Besides, overdone? What's with that?! Of course some would think the vast majority of any and all topics discussed on HB are overdone, just a matter of one's perspective. You know, topics like Cracking into the Extraction: when and where the espresso puck brews.

[coffeedirtdog]

The optimal window for the green will vary depending on how it's stored. Store in cotton bags in high humidity high temperature without air conditioning during the summer months like the Gulf States and its window would be short indeed.

You've done your research.

Yes I've heard the theory vacuuming roasted coffee beans sucks out the volatiles. Yet roasts mason jar FoodSaver vacuum sealed directly from cooling and four to six days vacuum rested served to an advanced cupping palate like Tom Owens suggests otherwise. I've done so on multiple occasions.

I think that theory and the ice crystals theory are both armchair quarterback bunk. When you start to research the structure of coffee and really think about it, some of these claims sound silly. It's good to see you do the research and take the time to set up experiments. Big props to you, Mike. That's all we can do, rather than hearsay and opinions, work with facts and data. Take the time to set up the experiment and judge it for ourselves. We must read things like Flament's coffee chemicals book and figure out what is really going on. The results should speak for themselves.

We should abandon this myth that jute bags are fine for a quality coffee. Light, moisture, and heat are well documented in their effects on green coffee and jute adds to the problem instead of helping solve it. Why not someone search about how jute is made and post info as it relates to coffee? It's hard to see someone swearing vacuum sealing may 'suck the aromatics out' then we overlook that the alternative is a big woven sack which in itself may aid in contaminating our beloved coffee.

I will be interested to see how people react to the Daterra packaging for this years Brazil CoE. How many people will it convince about the need for quality packaging? I just saw Paradise's Colombia Tolima lot vac sealed and will be dying to try it when I get back in town. I can pay money for that since it will be more likely to resemble the harvest flavors and I won't miss that 'optimal window.'

That's easy to do.
Roast it all within the optimal window for the green.

Open your mind. There is room for a lot of differing philosophies and approaches. The educated consumer has the choice, not some purist etiquette about what is right.

A lot of this is overdone. For most coffees storing in baggies, jute, or in whatever else the seller used to hold the beans, will work just fine for a year. Floral and highly fruited coffees will fade, and for these you might consider something more high tech.

I'm glad that as usual, you've done the research on this subject before offering opinions. I look forward to you posting your personal results and experience from freezing and vacuum bagging coffees at origin vs jute bag controls.

[Rainman]

I'm glad that as usual, you've done the research on this subject before offering opinions. I look forward to you posting your personal results and experience from freezing and vacuum bagging coffees at origin vs jute bag controls.

Thanks, Jim-- I appreciate your advice. You've probably got more experience in this area than just about anyone I'm familiar with who participates in these forums, and that's plenty for me. I get enough science at work, thanks- but I'll take Jim's opinion at face value, and not search his references, okay? I think science concedes a bit to personal experience here (IMHO). I consume enough jalapeno and habanero peppers to make the devil blush, so my tastebuds may be a bit "tainted", but there's only so much time in the day to appreciate good coffee before heading to work.

Ray

[another_jim]

Before everyone gets complimentary on my research, I want to underline how tough this topic is. You are comparing the remembered taste of the fresh beans with the beans as they are now. If you compare frozen to unfrozen greens, you still have to use the memory of the fresh greens as a reference.

This makes me reluctant to opine on subtle changes in the green. The loss of fruit and flowers is obvious enough to to overcome the vagaries of memory. But did the freezing make that taste a little harsher and rougher? change it some way? I can't see how one can either say or deny this barring a time machine.

My point on not overdoing it is fairly straight forward. If you enjoy a coffee for its caramels and chocolates, appreciating the acidity only as a balance, I don't see that enjoyment being much diminished in year old, room temperature stored greens. Until about 40 years ago, the conventional wisdom was that coffees like this improved with age. Ukers, for instance, says that not just Indos, but several year old Brazils and Yemens were sold for more than new ones.

[cai42]

Greetings,

We spend alot of time and effort to insure that the bean is stored properly once it reaches us but what happened to the bean before it reached us? Was the bean exposed to high temperatures and humidity? Wouldn't this have an affect on the bean's character?

Cliff Isackson

[another_jim]

We spend alot of time and effort to insure that the bean is stored properly once it reaches us but what happened to the bean before it reached us? Was the bean exposed to high temperatures and humidity? Wouldn't this have an affect on the bean's character?

What is the sentence pro roasters say most?

"This bag of coffee doesn't taste anything like the preship sample."