What E61 & Grinder would you buy for <$2K?

[mtnwoman]

I have read forums, web sites and reviews until my head is spinning. What I really want to hear is actual experiences (good or bad)! I'm considering the Expobar Brewtus II (though I am quite put out with WLL and their unresponsiveness to my request for a quote), the Giotto Premium, Volante and Andreja Premium. But, hey, I'm flexible. Also looking at either the Macap or Mazzer Mini. My only concern about an HX is the temp control issues, as I doubt I'll put the kind of time into it to become a true home-barista, but I'm willing to give it a reasonable shot (no pun intended).

This will be my first (and only) espresso machine. We primarily drink latte and the kids love steamed flavored milk. We're also big on hot tea, so we want a hot water dispenser, too. We are building a new house which will have a dedicated espresso bar with direct plumbing and plenty of power, but that's another 2 yrs. away, and I would like to start using the machine now. I do have 20 amp in my current kitchen and no overhead cabinet issues. I'd like a machine that can handle parties with as many as 8 guests, but for the most part it'll just be 2-4 users.

I TRULY appreciate any guidance ya'll can offer to this newbie...

[HB]

The Brewtus is currently selling for $1699. Adding in a Mazzer Mini / Macap and accessories will top $2K. That said, Abe's review was very favorable and I agree with his conclusion:

The key words in the "Brewtus advantage" are: ease, consistency, and repeatability. In testing the Brewtus temperature control, I tried to answer two questions: Does it deliver the brew temperature that its digital controller displays, and can it do it repeatedly with no fuss? The answer is a confident yes. However, there is room for more refinement in the Brewtus temperature selection, since some demanding home baristas may find the 1°C increments (about 1.8°F) to be too wide for their preferred coffees.

I've not checked out the "redesigned" Brewtus, which sports new gauges, easier brew pressure adjustment, the no-burn steam arms seen on the Quickmill Andreja Premium / Vetrano, ECM Giotto Premium, et al. If you are willing to spend a little time learning about HX temperature management, then your other choices come into play. Personally I enjoy using both types of espresso machines (dual boiler and HXs), but some find the lack of a temperature display disquieting.

(My hope is that a cheap kit similar to Eric's E61 thermocouple adaptor will hit the market and reduce the learning curve to near zero, if only so we can argue about something other than the valor of almost idiot-proof temperature management. )

We are building a new house which will have a dedicated espresso bar with direct plumbing and plenty of power, but that's another 2 yrs. away, and I would like to start using the machine now.

I'm a big fan of direct plumb espresso machines for convenience and rotary pumps for quiet operation, but that again pushes the price up.

[dk]

We are building a new house which will have a dedicated espresso bar with direct plumbing and plenty of power, but that's another 2 yrs. away, and I would like to start using the machine now.

If you are building a house in 2 years why not purchase the best grinder you possibly can like a Cimbali, Mazzer Electronic, or the Versalab which is supposed to be the penultimate grinder on the market and priced accordingly.
Once you decide on the grinder that you want than use the rest of the money towards a machine, even if you resell your machine in two years when you have your espresso bar built in to the house (nice feature!!), at that point purchase your ultimate espresso machine with a direct hook-up, besides you may have more options in a couple of years.

My 2 cents.

[Kristi]

A Bric: http://1st-line.com/machines/home...nte_tank_lever.htm

And a new Mazzer Super Jolly: http://1st-line.com/machines/home...zer/superjolly.htm

Kristi

[woodchuck]

I'm with Dan on this one. Like yourself I have been looking for a new machine for a couple of months now. I have had the good fortune to try out a few machines. The more I look at them the more a rotary and plumbed in machine appeals to me. If you are building in a bar then I would definitely consider it. I am currently leaning towards the La Spaz S1 and a Macap M4 stepless. Needs a bit of DIY to plumb the tray but dual boiler, rotary and $1800 for the machine is hard to beat. As far as I know the Brewtus now comes with a plumb in kit as well.

[mtnwoman]

Thanks so much to all who have responded.

I did contact Chris at Chriscoffee today and discussed my various options. He seems quite knowledgable about these machines. From what I have read and learned, and after talking to Chris, I think the rotary pump with direct plumbing is the way to go. (I can use a pump until the house is built.) So it looks like that narrows it down to the Vetrano or the Bricoletta. As to the grinder, it sure sounds like the Macap stepless is the way to go. If anyone has any comments/suggestions regarding any of these machines, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Chris did make an interesting point about the double boiler configuration that I had never thought of. He said that the dbl. boiler config. is using water from the boiler to make the espresso, and that water may be days old (due to the size of the boiler vs. the water held in a HX line.)

Lots to think about.

[Dogshot]

Chris did make an interesting point about the double boiler configuration that I had never thought of. He said that the dbl. boiler config. is using water from the boiler to make the espresso, and that water may be days old (due to the size of the boiler vs. the water held in a HX line.)

The Brewtus is the only machine that Chris' Coffee cannot replicate with their current lineup (ie. there is no direct competitor - the S1 is also a DB, but different in several meaningful ways, including a comparatively small brew boiler). His comment, therefore, does not apply to anything in his inventory, but does apply uniquely to the Brewtus (oh yeah, and the current line-up of Synessos, LM Lineas, and the GS3).

Putting sales tactics aside for a moment, I think that with warming the grouphead, brewing, and rinsing, it is pretty easy to replenish the better part of a DB's brew boiler over the course of a day. Also, I believe the stale water in a DB brew boiler issue was discussed a while ago on CG, and no one stepped forward with actual comments about noticing espresso quality suffering from the water sitting in a DB's brew boiler.

Mark (who owns a Brewtus II and is obviously sensitive about sales-biased Brewtus pot-shots)

[woodchuck]

I think the brew boiler for the S1 is only 0.45 liters. It wouldn't take much to flush that out during the course of a days operation.

[HB]

Putting sales tactics aside for a moment, I think that with warming the grouphead, brewing, and rinsing, it is pretty easy to replenish the better part of a DB's brew boiler over the course of a day.

I like the idea of the unquestionably fresh water that HXs offer, but I never noticed the effects of so-called "stale" water from the Brewtus. Not that I specifically looked for it either. I meant to simply draw a cup of mid-day water through the group for a quick taste test, but forgot.

A few times I tried intentionally "refreshing" most of the boiler, but got impatient because of the requisite pauses (most vibratory pump specifications recommend no more than one minute continuous operation followed by one minute rest). According to the Ulka website's performance numbers, a model E5 moves 650cc / minute at zero bar. There's some resistance from the gicleur, but in theory you could replenish about 1/3 the boiler in one continuous run.

That said, I bet Expobar's choice of equi-sized boilers had more to do with simplifying their parts supply than performance necessity.

[mtnwoman]

I appreciate the input on the Expobar. I am trying to run what I hear through the "sales pitch filter." This morning I spoke to 1st-line about the Volante and the Vibiemme Domobar Super. As to the esthetics, the Domobar has my vote hands down! Unfortunately, 1st doesn't have them in yet so I don't have many specifics or specs...but I think I may wait until they get their shipment in a few weeks as the machine is quite stunning.

I'm starting to think that a lot of the decision may be based on looks...as they all seem to function quite well and in a similar fashion.

[HB]

I'm starting to think that a lot of the decision may be based on looks...as they all seem to function quite well and in a similar fashion.

You're right, above a certain pricepoint, it's really a challenge to tease out the subtle differences that may matter to one person or another. The Buyer's Guide scores of Exceptional Espresso, Morning After, Cappuccino Lover's, Convenience / Features, and Materials / Workmanship are this site's attempt to quantify these distinctions. I avoid an Aesthetic score because it's probably the most subjective of all. Of course given how much espresso machines cost and the space they demand, most buyers do give 'looks' serious consideration.

[Balthazar_B]

As to the esthetics, the Domobar has my vote hands down! Unfortunately, 1st doesn't have them in yet so I don't have many specifics or specs...but I think I may wait until they get their shipment in a few weeks as the machine is quite stunning.

Unfortunately, the Domobar series is equipped with a vibratory pump (not rotary), but I agree it's a handsome machine. I happen to have a Vetrano (I see you've already discussed it with Chris Nachtrieb), which is a lot of machine for the money, and like most HX types in this price range (and higher), very capable of turning out great espresso easily and predictably. FWIW, I'll never go to a pourover and/or vibe pump machine again; I've been totally spoiled.

[mtnwoman]

John,

My understanding is that the Domobar Super is a rotary pump. After hearing both the rotary and vibe pump, I think I'll head toward the rotary.

[kaioslider]

I'd agree, rotary all the way. The reduction in noise alone is worth it, but there's also never having to refill the machine, it's just nice never having to think about it. I have a Vetrano and have no regrets at all. The Domobar has caught my eye a number of times, it's a nice looking machine and from the CG podcast, it has a 2L boiler. I'm really curious about what that does for the temp stability, i.e. closer to commercial HX machines.

[mtnwoman]

Well, imagine my surprise when I double checked on the domobar super (after John's comment that it is a vibe pump). I originally got that idea from Diane at 1st-Line. This time I emailed Stefano at espressocare.com. He said it's NOT a rotary pump, and that the first 90 units that they receive will not be plumbable. Bummer. Guess I'm back to Vetrano vs. Volante.

[mtnwoman]

Well, I opted for a Vetrano and a Macap stepless grinder. They should be here next week. (my UPS guy will probably give me an ear full, since the package weighs 109 lbs.!) Thanks to all for your input and suggestions.

[Balthazar_B]

Congratulations on your new toys! I assume you have the pump business worked out, but in case not, all you need is a large water bottle (5 gal is best) and a FloJet pump (I got mine at Espresso Parts NW). One other thing you might consider is an automatic timer capable of handling 15 amps; I use one to turn on the machine 45 minutes before I make coffee (you can program in differential times for weekend vs. weekdays) and to turn it off. Saves juice.

You should also pick up some machine detergent and, eventually, some descaler for maintenance (I'll bet Chris's folks thought of this when you placed your order).

It took me a couple of weeks to dial in everything to the point I could consistently turn out espresso superior to any I find in shops in the SF Bay Area, with very rare exceptions.

[mtnwoman]

John,

Which grinder do you have? Any suggestions for what/how to dial in the proper setting for getting started? I'm getting a couple of pounds of Lavazza (sp?) from chriscoffee. I've also ordered some Toscano from counter culture (for when I know what I'm doing!)

I'll be using the 5 gal. jug and flojet for now. Ordered the flojet from chriscoffee. Also have the timer and I guess the detergent (cafiza machine cleaner). I'm going to try to cheat and use one of those espro tampers that is supposed to click or something at 30 lb. pressure. I want to make everything as easy as possible, not only for my learning curve but so my 13 year old daughter can learn, too. Everything is due to arrive Tuesday.

Any recommendations/suggestions on what I might read or do to shorten the learning curve will be greatly appreciated!

[dk]

I also ordered and received my Vetrano just this past week and I must say that it is a considerable step up from my Expobar Office Control, when I say considerable I truly mean it. The fit and finish of the machine is awesome and it looks much better in person than in the pictures. It takes a little getting used to the Lever instead of the programmable buttons on the Expobar Control, however I am liking its simplicity. The steaming power is amazing almost too much for me right now as the milk heats up far too quickly, I will get used to it I'm sure.

Besides the water spraying all over my kitchen from my initial improper hook-up, the plumbing was not too difficult too hook up even with the filter kits. Rotary is extremely quiet and seemingly powerful. I am one happy camper right now and I have a feeling you will be as well when you receive and hook up your machine.

Sorry for the run-on sentences.

Good luck with it.

[RapidCoffee]

Any recommendations/suggestions on what I might read or do to shorten the learning curve will be greatly appreciated!

There are some great articles on the How Tos link on this site. Jim Schulman's "Espresso Guide" is the best place to start. Among other things, he gives hints for "dialing in" your grinder. Dan Kehn's "HX Love" is required reading to understand the whys and hows of the dreaded HX flush (just kidding, it's really easy).

You've made excellent choices for your machine, grinder, and vendor. Congratulations!

- another John (and another happy Vetrano owner)