What am I doing wrong with my silvia? (video) - Page 2

[Marshall]

That being said, I have a hard time identifying bitter/sour/sweet issues in my espresso. I guess I have been tasting these shots with only vague recollections of the killer cups i've had, and what espresso SHOULD taste like....
the reason visual aids help in a place like online forums is that i don't have the experience to actually share the "taste" accurately with you....and my camera isn't half bad.
I hope that in my experience with more and more coffee, I will gain a more refined palate, and can hone in my espresso making skills through describing the issues.
I will try to add taste descriptions with my subsequent video, but hope I don't mislead with a poor description.....but most importantly, thank you to everyone!

I was going to leave this thread alone, but I think it is beginning to border on the surrealistic. The basic fact is, you do not know what, if anything, is wrong with your shots, and people are giving you advice on how to correct unidentified "defects" by looking at videos. This is crazy, people!

Avidan, unlike some unfortunates, you do not live in an espresso desert. If I were you, I would give my home equipment a rest and spend the weekend visiting Caffe Luxxe, Choke, Coffee Klatch (if San Dimas isn't too far), Groundwork (2nd & Main Downtown shop), Intelligentsia and LaMill. Just drink espresso and really concentrate on what you like and don't like about the different shots. You don't need to develop an elaborate taste vocabulary (mine sucks), but, bitter, sour, fruity, chocolatey, spicy and herbal will start to make themselves known.

What you will be doing is calibrating your palate. Then go home, put your bottomless portafilter away, and focus on how your shots TASTE. Start with the basic "I like it/I don't like it," and then refine your opinions from there.

Have fun!

[Psyd]

Musicians talk about "eye music." It's music that looks brilliantly composed on the printed page

The difference between the eye music and the eye espresso is that the eye music is usually heard by the 'end-user', and the eye espresso isn't usually tasted by the end user. As a diagnostic tool, since we can't taste it, the video lends itself to diagnostics, and there are a few things that will definitely result in a high probability of failure to taste good that can be seen, diagnosed, and remedies suggested.
Again, there is no guarantee that a bad looking pull will be a bad tasting shot, but it's got a really good chance. Neither will there be a guarantee that a good looking pull is going to be a good tasting shot, but it's chances are far higher than a bad looking one. Videos of the results of manos are probably far better than their impression of the taste here, unless you are familiar with the persons' unique tastes, or they are remarkable in their descriptions.
Plus, it's a visual medium, here. Visuals are going to be a common method of communication until someone figures out how to send 'taste' over the interwebs.

[Marshall]

I have no problem with "I don't like my espresso because it tastes bitter/thin/sour/like rubber, etc. Do you see clues in my pour that might help me correct the problem?" Here the OP doesn't remember what a good shot tastes like and isn't complaining about anything but the way the shot looks !

[Psyd]

The visual indications that the OP expressed are generally accepted as the result of technique errors, which will inevitably (OK, rarely I get good 'spro from techniques that really should never work, but if I were at the track...) result in bad shots, or shots that are less than they could be. Especially on Silvia. She has a habit of letting you know right off what to expect, and if you're not treating her just right...
Anyhoo, we all made the leap from bad pours to less-than-stellar espresso with the OP, and responded in kind. I'll reiterate that the looks of an espresso shot aren't necessarily indicative of the result, but the chances of them being so are very high, and lacking the ability to taste another poster's espresso, looking at the result of his technique as it pours is a fairly indicative diagnostic tool. Besides, it's almost all we have to go on.
I'd supposed that if he was getting really ugly god shots (whatever those really are) that he'd not have come asking us to help him correct those! ; >

[miKe mcKoffee]

Since you provided no information on the taste and body of your shots, it is difficult to say whether you have a problem at all. 20 seconds is within normal range, especially on a machine that does not pre-infuse, and, frankly, your shot did not look all that bad. Put away your camera. Put a regular portafilter back on, and try focusing on the cup.

Musicians talk about "eye music." It's music that looks brilliantly composed on the printed page (clever variations and modulations, the order of the notes spells out the name of the composer's dog, etc.), but sound terrible. We probably focus too much on "eye espresso" on this forum.

Agree taste is the ultimate guide. However disagree that first pull video was close to within decent shot parameters. While Silvia does not have preinfusion vibe pumps by their nature don't start the actual pull flowing until 6 or 7 seconds on a good pull do to time to ramp up pressure versus virtually instant with rotary, that was about 15 seconds actual flow time. I'd highly suspect a rather sour shot regardless the shot temp. Especially if the Klatch 2008 USBC blend is anything like their 2007 USBC or 2007 WBC blends. (Didn't try their 2008 USBC)

[avidan]

This is my most recent shot. Used the WDT technique.
The shot tasted good, not the best, just good. It was a little sour.
Here is the video. Anyone have any advice? Should i set the grind finer?

[avidan]

I am going to try to avoid heating the taste vs. appearance argument, but want to thank everyone for the assistance anyway.

Marshall, I do frequent the 2 of the coffee shops you have listed, and have a decent sense of what i like. Just not sure how to get there at home. Hence my posting here. That being said, I do expect i will be visiting intelligentsia or LaMill tomorrow, and will focus on identifying and describing the flavors i enjoy.
BTW, the first shots did not get a taste description because i really lacked confidence in my ability to describe palate and really just knew i needed help. They looked wrong coming out of the portafilter, they looked wrong in the cup, and they didnt taste "right". I knew it wasn't right, but didn't want to distract the assistance from people by a poor description of how sour/thin/rubbery the first shots were. I guess my hesitation is that I can easily convey the image of my coffee (as Psyd stated), but lack confidence in describing the taste of my coffee.
Hopefully I will become more confident in calling my coffee sour. Or better yet, stop making sour shots

[jggall01]

It was a little sour.

If sour, then probably brewing temp is low. Fix this by allowing 45 minutes or more for the machine to fully warm up, and/or increasing the PID setpoint by 2F at a time.

Jim

[HB]

It was a little sour. Here is the video. Anyone have any advice? Should i set the grind finer?

The lighting wasn't very good, but the video showed no significant channeling. Sourness is typically a sign of too low a temperature or too fast an extraction. I would first try bumping the temperature up one degree.

[miKe mcKoffee]

If sour, then probably brewing temp is low. Fix this by allowing 45 minutes or more for the machine to fully warm up, and/or increasing the PID setpoint by 2F at a time.

Jim

Agree shot timing appeared much better than first video shot, with a caveat question or two. Was that a first shot from idle or during a series of shots? If from idle do you flush to warm the group before the pull? PID'd boiler has limited usefulness on Silvia. For the same Silvia boiler temp the actual shot temp will increase shot to shot in a series until the group temp saturated and equalized. Up to about 12f hotter by shot 7 in a series with good build speed. Doesn't matter if Silvia has been on for hours, if idle the group will be cooler for the first shot versus subsequent shots in a series of pulls. Shot temp will rise shot to shot until about shot 7 IIRC from when I had Silivia and tested with Thermofilter. This is why some (like Andy) have actively heated Silvia's group via rope heater and 2nd PID. I ordered the parts to do the group heater mod' but upgraded to my Bricoletta before getting around to it...

[avidan]

excellent advice, it was the first shot of the day. I will make sure everything is nice and hot before extracting. regardless, i do taste these shots getting better (and looking better).
again,
thanks for all the help.

[radish_beans]

Agree shot timing appeared much better than first video shot, with a caveat question or two. Was that a first shot from idle or during a series of shots? If from idle do you flush to warm the group before the pull? PID'd boiler has limited usefulness on Silvia. For the same Silvia boiler temp the actual shot temp will increase shot to shot in a series until the group temp saturated and equalized. Up to about 12f hotter by shot 7 in a series with good build speed. Doesn't matter if Silvia has been on for hours, if idle the group will be cooler for the first shot versus subsequent shots in a series of pulls. Shot temp will rise shot to shot until about shot 7 IIRC from when I had Silivia and tested with Thermofilter. This is why some (like Andy) have actively heated Silvia's group via rope heater and 2nd PID. I ordered the parts to do the group heater mod' but upgraded to my Bricoletta before getting around to it...

Apologies for hijacking your thread avidan, but I have a question for Mike: after the seven shots, would I still be correct in thinking that there is a difference between the grouphead and boiler/PID temp? I had always assumed that there was approx a 25F diff?

[Podster]

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I would like an answer to this question:

If you lock the portafilter in normally and then remove it before pulling your shots, do you still have the impression from the screw in the middle?

I did this this evening on my Silvia and noticed that one side of the puck is touching (and rubbing off on) the shower screen. I take this to mean that I am over-dosing? I'm finding that extracting times are too quick unless I overdose, yet I end up with soupy pucks (due to a fine grind?) that have recently been sticking to the shower screen after extraction. I think the shots are tasting somewhat acidic.

[Marshall]

I did this this evening on my Silvia and noticed that one side of the puck is touching (and rubbing off on) the shower screen. I take this to mean that I am over-dosing? I'm finding that extracting times are too quick unless I overdose, yet I end up with soupy pucks (due to a fine grind?) that have recently been sticking to the shower screen after extraction. I think the shots are tasting somewhat acidic.

If it's really "one side," something isn't level, and it's probably your dosing.

[ChrisC]

Podster, Marshall is right, something is crooked in your dosing and distribution. If you figure it out and get it straight, and you're still seeing the screen touching the coffee BEFORE brewing, you also need to dose less coffee. (The screw leaving a slight imprint, while not ideal, seems to have less effect on extraction, so don't stress about that too much.) The Silvia is notorious for a lower grouphead that doesn't leave much headroom between the screen and coffee at higher doses. I actually found that it was impossible for me to dose more than I wanted and sweep the top of the basket off evenly -- it always resulted in too much coffee in the basket. Now I weigh 20 grams or less (I found 20 was the functional max) of beans and grind that into the PF with a yogurt cup, WDT (which generally leaves the top of the coffee slightly below the top of the basket), tamp (pretty hard, and very hard if using close to 20 grams), and insert.

I wouldn't worry about soupy pucks, etc. Just work on getting something you like the taste of. I have found I can dose 14 grams (which many think of as a standard dose for a double) and still get a very good shot by grinding finer. By taste I generally prefer the shots at I get 18-19 grams though.

Another thing for all Silvia owners -- the stock double basket you get is pretty crap and makes nice extractions unnecessarily difficult. One of the biggest improvements I ever saw in my coffee was when someone gave me a La Marzocco basket. If I were you guys, I'd buy one of the ridgeless ones (slightly easier to pop out when you need to).

[Podster]

I think the uneven tamping definitely was an issue, as well as overdosing. If I tamp levelly, and insert a dry PF in a dry group (shadowfax suggested a wet shower screen would also leave an impression, even if it didn't really touch), then I see no touching (neither of the screw). However, even with the level dose/tamp described above, pucks are still sticking to the shower screen after pulling my shot. I'm definitely going to look for a ridgeless LM 14g basket as a replacement for the 12g basket that comes with Silvia.

[ChrisC]

The replacement basket will help your shots enormously in general, but I wouldn't worry about the pucks sticking -- you should flush between shots anyway, as there will always be at least a little coffee on the screen after a pull. That said, with the bigger basket you can updose a bit, which will usually give you firmer pucks.

Good luck!

[avidan]

hey,
just wanted to follow up with an update.
WDT has been a savior. Even distribution has made great extractions.
My shots taste much better, and have a rich chocolate flavor... i will refrain from posting another video (yes, marshall, i know, eye music)
but, wanted to tell everyone that my coffee LOOKS as good as it tastes