What am I doing wrong? [videos]

[ozzyymclaren]

it has been 2 weeks with my new La cimbali Junior M21 and La cimbali junior grinder.
But i cant manage to get a really good shot from her. What im doing wrong, i try lots of combination. 2.5 kg coffee went to to waste but what i have got, bitterish and sour espresso.
when i dose 16 gr. and do nsew with 30 lbs tamp, the shots take 20 sec for 1.7 oz. and i dont lock the portafilter tightly because i think there is no extraction space between shower and coffee. but when i dose 14 gr. its impossible to get a good shot.

when i dose 16 gr. with the grinder setting 1.5, do nsew or stockfleths and tamp with my all power. i dont see channeling (ı havent got a naked portafilter, ı look at the puck after extraction, ıf ı see no pinholes i said no channeling.) and the shot timing is 27 sec. for 1.75 oz. but it starts to blond earlier ı think about 1.40 oz. the shot seems good but tastes not exactly what i expect. (you can see the shot in the picture below.
And one more thing during the extraction i see water flowing to the driptray. is it normal?
ı use illy beans, i know thats not the best, it is the best ı can find in my country. ı have no one around me to ask, only you can help me. thanks.

[DC]

ı use illy beans, i know thets not the best, it is the best ı can find in my country. ı have no one around me to ask, only you can help me. thanks.

Have you tried ordering coffee from an online roaster in Europe? I use hasbean.co.uk, you will have to pay a little more for postage but they deliver very quickly (at least in the UK). You could at least email them and ask if it is possible to post out to you and how much it would cost / time it would take.

It may be that this is all you need to change. Worth a try.

Hope that helps

[mattwells]

From the pic, you are missing some of the classic indicators of fresh beans (tiger striping, flecking, etc.), but that is to be somewhat expected from the Illy beans. If you can't source a roaster locally then you may be able to work with the Illy some (I have never used it, so I don't know).

Try grinding finer than the 1.5 setting and tamping to 30 pounds. Though you are shooting for 30 sec./1.5-2oz., the blonding point is when the shot is done, not the volume - so watch the pour.

It is definitely not the machine, which means it is one (or both) of the following: the beans, or the barista. There may be the 4m's of espresso, but for troubleshooting, those are the 2 B's. Once you get above the level of a krups machine, only the 2 B's matter: the beans and the barista.

[ozzyymclaren]

i think the problem is barista...
i will go with fresh beans as soon as i can find them
maybe i can buy them overseas. but isnt it normal that a machine pulls shots despite finer setting and a over 50 lbs tamp in 20 sec? did i missing something with the machine, maybe a setting. it stays with the factory settings.

[mattwells]

i think the problem is barista...

In all honesty - probably a little bit of both. Though you may not be much of a barista, not having fresh beans really hurts.

but isnt it normal that a machine pulls shots despite finer setting and a over 50 lbs tamp in 20 sec? did i missing something with the machine, maybe a setting. it stays with the factory settings.

I don't really understand your question, but if you grind finer and tamp harder, then you should get less volume in more time. You might try dialing the grind down to the point where you choke the machine (nothing coming out of the portafilter, or very little) and then back off. It may give you more feedback than going the other way.

As a side note, I know that on Bob Roseman's La Spaziale each 'click' on the Cimbali Junior is about 5 seconds in shot time (IIRC). It will probably be different with your machine, but that may give you some rough guidelines.

/mw

[ozzyymclaren]

thanks i will try to choke the machine. but it seems it will be hard to choke the machine. is it harmful to to grinder to run at setting "0" ?

[ozzyymclaren]

it is long, sorry. but i want to show all my processes. how to prepare a bad espresso. and what a shame i had about my tamper... i will get it from a web site as soon as it possible.

[Phaelon56]

is it harmfull to to grinder to run at setting "0" ?

I'm not familiar with your specific grinder but the key point is simply to ensure that the burrs don't rub against each other and cause premature wear or damage. Run the grinder with no beans in it and set it to finer settings gradually until you start to hear the faint whine that indicates the burrs are beginning to touch each other. Back off a very small amount - just a click or two - and then try grinding a shot.

On my Mazzer grinder if the burrs are relatively new I actually use it at the 0 (zero) setting or even a notch or two finer than that. Also - keep in mind that when you make a change in the fineness of the grinder it will not be visibly effective for about one shot after making the change if you're working from a hopper of beans. There are always beans left in the grinder throat that are partially ground from the previous setting.

[ozzyymclaren]

thanks this is very helpful. i've tried it and my stop point is 0.5 i think. when i came to this value i hear a metallic sound then i stopped.

[welone]

thanks i will try to choke the machine. but it seems it will be hard to choke the machine. is it harmful to to grinder to run at setting "0" ?

hi,
despite my low post count i dare to throw in my 2 cents worth

If you have to grind on a setting of almost "0" to choke your machine (with a really capable grinder!), then it's most probably because of the age of the beans. Maybe you could try to see if it makes a difference, if you use beans from a package that you just opened (or is open for less than 2 days). I just visited Turkey last autumn and also liked the turkish coffee
it seemed that people in turkey also consume quite a lot of 'kahve'. Because of this i was quite astonished to hear, that you can't source fresh roasted beans. So i just had to go for a search, but only found a single one:

the english version
http://www.johnscoffee.com.tr/

and two sites of the same dealer in turkish
http://www.kahveci.com/ ---- IIRC, it means the guy who makes coffee (as profession), right?
http://www.sgckahve.com/ --- everything is in turkish so I don't have much of a clue what this site is about

I wonder if they state a roast date on their beans. At least their company is a member of the SCAE (as you see on the last link). Unfortunately i couldn't find out which other companies from turkey are SCAE members - the SCAE website is really lamentable..

greets

marco

[ozzyymclaren]

thanks i will try to choke the machine. but it seems it will be hard to choke the machine. is it harmfull to to grinder to run at settin "0" ?

hi,
despite my low post count i dare to throw in my 2 cents worth

If you have to grind on a setting of almost "0" to choke your machine (with a really capable grinder!), then it's most probably because of the age of the beans. Maybe you could try to see if it makes a difference, if you use beans from a package that you just opened (or is open for less than 2 days). I just visited Turkey last autumn and also liked the turkish coffee
it seemed that people in turkey also consume quite a lot of 'kahve'. Because of this i was quite astonished to hear, that you can't source fresh roasted beans. So i just had to go for a search, but only found a single one:

the english version
http://www.johnscoffee.com.tr/

and two sites of the same dealer in turkish
http://www.kahveci.com/ ---- IIRC, it means the guy who makes coffee (as profession), right?
http://www.sgckahve.com/ --- everything is in turkish so I don't have much of a clue what this site is about

I wonder if they state a roast date on their beans. At least their company is a member of the SCAE (as you see on the last link). Unfortunately i couldn't find out which other companies from turkey are SCAE members - the SCAE website is really lamentable..

greets

marco

really thanks for your effort. İ will contact them. İ have know johns coffee but they sell aromatic coffees which i dont like. But maybe they have some fresh roasted beans for espresso.  thanks again.
And if you come to turkey again let me know... be my guest.

[Cathi]

Really nice vid, great camera work. My vote for is for the beans. Anyway you could get some green ones and try and roast them yourself? There are many low cost, low tech options, but I'm not sure of availabilty for you. Air popper, cast iron pot, even the heat gun/dog bowl option? If you can find a good source for unroasted beans and try and roast in home, that would solve your freshness issues.

Good luck.

[Beezer]

I'd agree that fresh beans are essential. Also, you might want to track down a high quality tamper to fits your basket. Seeing you use that plastic tamper in your video with your expensive machine and grinder was a bit shocking.

Otherwise, your technique looks pretty good, better than mine in fact. But the shot is clearly running fast and thin, which would imply either stale beans or bad channeling. Or both. Get some fresh beans and a good tamper, and I bet your results will be 100 times better.

[jesawdy]

Well, first, nice job shooting the video. Second, nice gear (minus tamper). Third, good technique and methodical approach....

As all have said, it is most likely the beans. The plastic tamp likely doesn't help.

I would suggest you pursue a tamper and a bottomless portafilter... I know that you have been looking into that based on prior posts. (FYI there was a nice Cimbali bottomless for sale on CG about a month+ ago from Kristi, you might see if they still have it). If you can't get any satisfaction sourcing from a US or other vendor for a tamper, I would highly recommend that you source a tamper from Paul Pratt in Honk Kong, http://www.coffeebumper.com

I hope you can find a source for fresh beans.

EDIT - I was also surprised to see that you were able to put 16g in the Cimbali Junior grinder and get 16g out.... I seem to lose beans in mine so I just keep the hopper loaded with a small supply.

[chelya]

+1 for the beans. The rest is excellent.

A couple of other things to try:
- bitter taste can come from the group in a need for cleaning. (cafiza)
- try to run water a bit more - lower temp can improve illy taste.

[ozzyymclaren]

thanks for the replies. After the video I try finer grind setting and low tamp about 30 lbs. ıt works fairly well then this. But still a bit speedy shot. I think my grinder setting going to be 1. Below that point i had some troubles. I will try try try. Then buy myself a good tamper, naked portafilter. But now my money goes to that canned illy beans... and that makes me silly.

Thanks for your apraciate for the vid. Maybe i try to be a cameraman not to be a home barista.
I backflush everynight with chemicals. And once a week a put portafilter in chemical added hot water overnight.
Cimbali junior grinder sometimes gives more than i gave. Sometimes i put 16 gr beans and get 17. Sometimes put 16 and get 15. Maybe its because of the scale.
A few more questions, when ı flush before the shot ı immediatly lock the portafilter and start to shot. The gaggue shows 0.8 bar after that. İt gives me good results. Is it right?
And how tight ı must lock the portafilter. If ı lock fully ı believe there will be no space between the puck and the shower.

One last think, i called the roaster that welone find for me. They say they can supply me fresh roasted beans. That's the good news. I will get on Monday I think. But ım not sure about the beans quality. Where it came from. But fresh is fresh right...
Again thanks for all answer, you are all very helpful..

[ozzyymclaren]

I found these beans at the roaster. which one will you suggest

ESPRESSO
JOHN'S ESPRESSO

SPECIALITY
VARIETIES
Colombian Supremo
Guatemala Antigua Pastores
Ethiopia Sidamo Lavato
Kenya AA Limited
Brazillian Dulce NY
Indian Plantation Mysore
Costa Rica SHB Tarrazu S. Rafael
Colombian Dark
Costa Rica Dark
Sumatra Mandheling

[HB]

it is long, sorry. but i want to show all my processes. how to prepare a bad espresso.

Thanks for the video, it helps alot. Your attention to detail with the dosing and distribution certainly isn't the cause. The pour itself strongly suggests stale coffee and channeling. Ken Fox is the expert on all things Cimbali, but I found the Cimbali Junior DT1 was sensitive to updosing and your puck seemed a little high in the basket. I would first get fresher coffee, then dose slightly lower in the basket.

It was difficult to judge the flush amount from the video, but it looks a bit too long. Cimbali prides themselves on voluminous heat exchangers and heavy groups with long, long thermal memory. If you over flush, it's not forgiven anytime soon. The typical flush is short and sweet under load; getting from idle to ready to rock requires a few flushes for best results (see the section entitled How I Learned to Love HXs in the guide).

[RonTheMan]

I found these beans at the roaster. which one will you suggest

ESPRESSO
JOHN'S ESPRESSO

SPECIALITY
VARIETIES
Colombian Supremo
Guatemala Antigua Pastores
Ethiopia Sidamo Lavato
Kenya AA Limited
Brazillian Dulce NY
Indian Plantation Mysore
Costa Rica SHB Tarrazu S. Rafael
Colombian Dark
Costa Rica Dark
Sumatra Mandheling

Taste is certainly subjective. IMHO, try getting small quantities of different beans to try. If it is not possible, I would go with the Kenya AA, Costa Rica Tarrazu and Sumatra Mandheling.

[mattwells]

Taste is certainly subjective. IMHO, try getting small quantities of different beans to try. If it is not possible, I would go with the Kenya AA, Costa Rica Tarrazu and Sumatra Mandheling.

I am going to, respectfully, disagree. Maybe ask the roaster what he would suggest (probably his espresso blend) and get a fair quantity of it to dial in your machine. You will have a lot of sink shots and if you are switching back and forth between coffees the whole time, then you will never get a 'close approximation' of what your settings should be.

Once you are "in the vicinity" you can try different coffees and only have minor changes (few sink shots) with each new coffee or blend.

my .02 - which is probably worth more like .00

/mw