Weigh Coffee Before or After Grinding?

[Mark08859]

So, in the never ending pursuit to improve one's ability to make a killer espresso, I've purchased a gram scale. My question is do I weigh the beans before they go in the Rocky (a click-clack lid is used with it) or should the resulting ground coffee get weighed? Thanks in advance.

[TimEggers]

Hi Mark,

When I used to weigh I always weighed after grinding. In fact I weighed the portafilter handle and all. With any grinder there is always going to be some grounds retention. I felt most comfortable measuring the portafilter that way I knew exactly what was in it each time.

Good luck!

[CyclingCraig]

My Standard routine is:

-2 scoops of beans into the MACAP M4
-Grind Beans while flushing Anita
-Finish flush, and remove basket from PF Handle(Ridgeless LM Baskets), place PF back into Group to keep warm
-Place empty basket on scale and zero (Tare)
-Insert cut yogurt cup into basket and dose into basket.
-WDT with straightened paperclip, remove yogurt cup and NSEW to level.
-Weight basket to see how close I am to my desired weight (~15.5g)
-remove PF from Group, place basket in PF and tamp.
-Lock-in and pull.

[edwa]

Do yourself a favor. Weigh your beans first, then after, and see the change and then adjust. That is about as far as I go first thing in the morning when trying to appease the one-eye ogre within me who is jonesing for a java. I weigh the beans first then dump them into the grinder and then start the ritual. If I had to weigh after grinding, I'd probably be making a bigger mess and toying with the ogre's patience. To say nothing of Mrs. Ogre

I may be off a fraction or two of a gram but it saves more waste than it does improve my shot. Call me lazy, call me a bad barista. "Bad Barista, bad"

By the way, for any of you traveling to Port Douglas, Australia (mostly SCUBA divers) the best capps in town are found at Java Blue, and re;hab.

[Psyd]

So, in the never ending pursuit to improve one's ability to make a killer espresso, I've purchased a gram scale. My question is do I weigh the beans before they go in the Rocky (a click-clack lid is used with it) or should the resulting ground coffee get weighed? Thanks in advance.

I tare for the basket, and then measure out two 16,2 gram doses into the throat of the Mazzer Monster, er, Major. I grind and thwack till it looks like 16.2g into the yoghurt cup in prep for the WDT, and I know that the cup is exactly 3.0g, so I check for 19.2g. Of course, I add or subtract grounds as necessary. Once I get 19.2 grams, I WDT and Stockfleth, and tare the next basket. After dosing and cleaning the doser, the other basket comes to 16.2, so I've just begun to dose and clean and not bother with the second measurement. Sometimes I'll do it if I have plenty of time and I want to check how things are doing, and so far, no variances.
I'd say measure the beans, dump 'em into the hopper, and then run them all through, 'burping' and cleaning the grinder into the basket.
Then measure the result. You should be getting the same at both ends. OTOH, if the dose you want is the same as a full basket, you can just estimate (being generous), level, tamp, and pull.

[Ken Fox]

the smaller and the diameter of its grindstones, the less it will matter. The larger the burr set and longer the grindpath, the more it will matter.

With larger commercial type grinders you will find considerable variation from time to time, and will not be able to explain it.

If you are weighing coffee for the purpose of having consistency in your shotmaking, the only things that will matter are the grind setting (which is effected by whether or not there is a bean mass or weight weighing down the beans that are about to be ground) and the quantity of coffee IN THE PORTAFILTER. What you put into the grinder will not effect your shots except as above.

Therefore, if you are trying to make consistent shots, then you should weigh the resulting grinds, and make sure that they are produced in constant conditions as concerns the presence or absence of a bean mass or weight above the beans going in to be ground. If you are trying to absolutely minimize waste down to the sub gram level, then weigh the unground beans. If you are trying to do both, then weigh both before and after.

ken

[Rosemary]

After Ken's thread on down dosing I also started weighing after grinding and has found it great for improving consistency. Has anyone who has been weighing their doses for a while tried dosing "free hand" again to see if they can produce the same consistency without the scales now?

Rosemary

[CyclingCraig]

Lately, I have been weighting my baskets before I tamp and pull.....

BUTTT, just to see how consistent I am in weight from shot to shot. I actually am not caring about the actual weight of coffee, more going by volumetric dose(Unless I am over 17g).

I dose into basket with yogurt cup stuck in it, WDT... remove yorgut cup... NSEW then weigh.. pretty close to 16.5g each time in my LM ridgeless baskets.

I think my QM Anita is more critical on head space rather then coffee weight? So the actual weight of the coffee doesn't matter as much as getting the correct head space.. OR I could just be crazy.

I USED to measure 14.5g in a cup, then transfer to PF, WDT, Tamp, Lock and pull, but now that I am just leveling to top of basket, shot seem more consistent?

[TimEggers]

Lately, I have been weighting my baskets before I tamp and pull.....

BUTTT, just to see how consistent I am in weight from shot to shot. I actually am not caring about the actual weight of coffee, more going by volumetric dose(Unless I am over 17g).

I dose into basket with yogurt cup stuck in it, WDT... remove yorgut cup... NSEW then weigh.. pretty close to 16.5g each time in my LM ridgeless baskets.

I think my QM Anita is more critical on head space rather then coffee weight? So the actual weight of the coffee doesn't matter as much as getting the correct head space.. OR I could just be crazy.

I USED to measure 14.5g in a cup, then transfer to PF, WDT, Tamp, Lock and pull, but now that I am just leveling to top of basket, shot seem more consistent?

Since going to a 12-13.5g dose via volume dosing I've found that the shots make themselves on my Anita. Anita likes breathing room for sure but a lighter dose/tighter grind may be the ticket to worry free espresso, it was for me.

[Ken Fox]

Since going to a 12-13.5g dose via volume dosing I've found that the shots make themselves on my Anita. Anita likes breathing room for sure but a lighter dose/tighter grind may be the ticket to worry free espresso, it was for me.

That's the point, as I see it. If you dose in Italian-ish fashion, e.g. roughly 14g plus or minus a little, you should be able to just plop the coffee in there, tamp for 2 seconds with something as rudimentary as a built in tamper on your grinder or even the POS plastic tamper that shipped with your espresso machine, and pull repeatably good shots with no other razzamatazz.

If someone could convince me that cramming more coffee into the basket produced better, tastier, shots, then all the effort needed to produce them would seem worth it. But for me and my taste, I get better tasting shots with these 12-15g doses than I ever got with 18 or 19. Granted, some blends are designed for updosing. My simple solution to that issue is not to use those blends.

I'd rather drink nice SOs anyway. I've yet to see a good SO that works for espresso, work better updosed than in the afforementioned 12-15g range.

ken

[CyclingCraig]

Since going to a 12-13.5g dose via volume dosing I've found that the shots make themselves on my Anita. Anita likes breathing room for sure but a lighter dose/tighter grind may be the ticket to worry free espresso, it was for me.

How do you dose volume wise to 12 - 13.5g? Are you using small baskets and leveling to top, or somehow leveling to something lower than the top of the basket?

How fine are you grinding to get 25s pulls (I have MACAP M4, same as you I believe), How many numbers up on the M4 from zero point (Burrs just touching). For example, I am grinding about 1 to 1.2 numbers up from my full zero point.

Also, when you pull your shot, how much volume of espresso you getting? Or are you weighing your shot after the pull?

[Mark08859]

If you are weighing coffee for the purpose of having consistency in your shotmaking, the only things that will matter are the grind setting (which is effected by whether or not there is a bean mass or weight weighing down the beans that are about to be ground) and the quantity of coffee IN THE PORTAFILTER. What you put into the grinder will not effect your shots except as above.

This is the basic goal. So I've been weighing after the grind. I've been trying about 18g and a finer grind with the Rocky. After reading some of the newer posts, however, I may reduce it to about 14g or 16g (will probably try both) and try an even finer grind. Trying to acheive an 8 - 10 second dwell for a total 25 second pour.

Oddly enough, I've discovered that my Alexia double baskets are over a gram apart in weight. Also, I had simply been over filling the basket and probably using well over 20 + grams of coffee. If nothing else, this should make the coffee last longer.

[TimEggers]

How do you dose volume wise to 12 - 13.5g? Are you using small baskets and leveling to top, or somehow leveling to something lower than the top of the basket?

How fine are you grinding to get 25s pulls (I have MACAP M4, same as you I believe), How many numbers up on the M4 from zero point (Burrs just touching). For example, I am grinding about 1 to 1.2 numbers up from my full zero point.

Also, when you pull your shot, how much volume of espresso you getting? Or are you weighing your shot after the pull?

Hello Craig in simplest terms I simply eyeball it. In more detail:


The shot ground into the portafilter (standard Quickmill double basket). I just eyeball it to this point. Just for fun I measured this one and it was 14g.


I WDT to level out/distribute the grounds. I don't use a funnel because with down...cough...proper...cough dosing it isn't needed. I don't have any grounds go over the edge usually.


Then I tap the portafilter on the doser to settle the grounds. This seems to help my consistency plus it levels the coffee nicely so I can tamp.


Here is the shot tamped and ready to pull.


The fruits of my labor! This shot did run fast (the grinder wasn't dialed in after this mornings drip pot) so the volume is a little high. But shot volumes are normal and the espresso damn good. Please also note that I have my Anita dialed down to 7.75 bar brewing pressure. I had to go this low to get rid of the harshness and smooth out the flavors. I don't care what the dial says my tongue says this is spot on! Best of luck!

[CyclingCraig]

RATS!...

Looks like I will be trying 14g doses tonight?

I USED to do 14.5g doses... I would tare a dixi cup, thack thack into the dixi cup till I had 14.5g.

Then pour from dixi into PF and WDT, Tamp etc.... I got tired of that process and just started to fill pf, WDT, NSEW.

Back to the drawing board

(To make this MORE complicated I started home roasting, so WHO knows what the heck I am getting from Anita)

[TimEggers]

Craig I don't know if a half-gram is worth completely starting over with your routine especially if you enjoy the espresso you"re making now. I just started grinding a bit finer then lowered my dose. My typical dose is a 12-13g. Like I said above the espresso makes itself with minimal fuss from me. I still use the WDT to distribute (the pros can do this right from the doser, I admit I need practice), as dosing below the rim can be tricky. But it's not impossible. Best of luck!

[CyclingCraig]

Craig I don't know if a half-gram is worth completely starting over with your routine

Sorry, my wording was kinda wacky... I used to be at 14.5g... NOW(for the past couple of months) I have been dosing and WDT then Leveling to top of basket (NSEW).. THIS method would yield about 16.5g.

When I was doing the 14.5g dosing I was having GREAT results, don't know what led me down the dark side of the force... uhh I mean dose. I think I just was trying to get faster, and the whole weighing into the dixi cup first, then pour into basket thing got old .

I assume you have a doserless grinder?

[TimEggers]

I assume you have a doserless grinder?

Can't you see my grinder in photo's above? It's a Mazzer Super Jolly with doser.

[Merlino]

I'm assuming your grinder is going to snack on roughly the same amount of coffee each time. So weigh your beans before grinding (lot less messy), grind and pull. If too little, add some beans. It's about being consistent, right?

[Ken Fox]

I'm assuming your grinder is going to snack on roughly the same amount of coffee each time. So weigh your beans before grinding (lot less messy), grind and pull. If too little, add some beans. It's about being consistent, right?

But they don't, especially if you are talking about a commercial level grinder with burr diameter of 64mm or more. If you try this repeatedly and weigh the results, you will find that there is an "average" loss with most grinders, but sometimes you get more out than you put in (e.g. there is some leftover from before that you thought you had evacuated) or you get a lot less, like 3g swallowed up for no apparent reason.

The best approach from both a coffee conservation and consistent weight standpoint, is to develop a way to salvage the grinds in the discharge chute (going into the grinder doser if it has one, or in any event coming directly from the burrs) before you weigh your grind product. I use a chop stick and the result is that not only do I get to use virtually all the grinds that I just produced with nearly zero waste, but the grinder discharge chute is then clean for the next shot and there will be little remaining "stale" grinds leftover from the last shot, which may have been ground hours before.

I generally will turn on my gram scale, tare it with whatever the receptacle is that I'm putting the ground coffee into, then weigh grinds before I have enough knowing then how much more I need to grind, generally another few remaining grams. I end up generally with a shot using 14g for a double, with a total waste of maybe 2 grams including both what I used to clean out the doser at the beginning of the grinding, and the excess amount ground that I don't use. Since I've salvaged the grind chute grinds, this means I'm using about a total of 16g in the production of each shot. Since lower dosed shots tend not to channel and tend to be very consistent, I also have very few sink shots compared to before.

In the past, when I used about 19g per shot, I'd estimate the waste with my earlier technique as being more like 5 or 6 grams, with no attempt having been made to salvage the chute grinds. So that's roughly 25g per shot produced (with more sink shots by percentage) vs. current usage of ~16g, a savings of roughly 35%.

I prefer the taste of the lower gram weight shots, which makes the approach a winner all around for me. 28 shots per pound is nice to get, also

For those who like to switch coffees frequently and to run their grinder with the hopper or entry point nearly or completely empty (which requires a finer grind level adjustment in most grinders, and may effect shot quality), you should probably weigh the beans you put in also, and may need to add a few more beans later if it turns out you don't get back what you put in.


ken

[Rainman]

I only weigh now to avoid a bit of waste, and to play around with a nifty digital scale I got from Sweet Maria's a while ago. My main target is how much coffee fills the portafilter after tamping, since I just kinda know where it should sit (visually) for both 19 gm and 15 gm (Ken's idea, which I tend to like now) of ground coffee. One cool thing I noticed from this though, is that after sweeping the grounds from the grind chute, and emptying the doser on this grinder, only 0.1 gm of coffee is lost... That's a pretty clean sweep in that thing, and it's not modified at all.

Ray