Water, Scaling and Descaling with HX machines? - Page 4

[lparsons21]

I'm coming very late to this discussion as I am upgrading my equipment and need to know whether to get a small water softener or not. And I'm new to this forum.

After many phone calls and such, I found that our water as 80 mg/liter Calcium. I don't know exactly what that means.

I'm gettng ready to order my Izzo Alex and want to order a softener at the same time if needed.

Help please.

[cannonfodder]

A start may be Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ. But be warned, unless you have a PhD, it may make your brain hurt.

[lparsons21]

Thanks, but I already read that, my head is still spinning!

I was hoping for some easier reading here.

[puchang]

Hi everyone,

I am ready to descale the heat exchanger on my Anita with Cleancaf but I have a question. What is the correct concentration of the descaling solution? There are three small packages in a pack of Cleancaf and each package is 0.33 oz (9g). I would like to flush 1 liter (around 2 pints) of descaling solution through the group. How many packages should I use? Thanks very much.

puchang

[jesawdy]

Per the instructions at http://www.urnex.com/cleancafinstructions.htm it is 1 package per 4 cups of water (or roughly 1 liter).

[puchang]

Per the instructions at http://www.urnex.com/cleancafinstructions.htm it is 1 package per 4 cups of water (or roughly 1 liter).

Thanks Jeff.

puchang

[mrgnomer]

Great instructions. I just descaled my Vetrano, boiler and hx. Bit more of a challange it being plumbed in, I imagine, and I was sweating there more than once hoping not to do anything to mess her up. Thanks for the directions.

She's running now and is pulling shots like normal. No damage done. Things taste cleaner, actually.

A few questions about the procedure. Each time I over filled the boiler then drained the water out to, I'm assuming, below the sensor, with the sensor connected it took quite a while for the pump to activate, much longer than I figured to maintain the set water level. Draining with the water wand got water but at one point only steam and no water. When the pump finally activated the boiler pressure reading climbed slowly at first then shot up to way higher than the set 1.2 to the red zone and the pump kept going. When it hit the red zone I shut off and/or bled steam out of the steam wand to get the pressure back down. After a few funky no water but steam out of the water wand and pressure shooting up into the red zone while pump stays on things settled down and the pressure held at set, water came out of the water wand and the pump came on with a drop in water level and off, I'm assuming, when the water reached the proper level. This happened every time I forced boiler overfill and then tried to drain the boiler and get the pressure/fill level back to normal.

So what happened? Is there a potential for doing damage when the pressure reading shoots up, pump doesn't go on and only steam is coming out of the water wand? Is it an air pocket messing things up and giving false readings? Are there precautions to follow descaling a plumbed in HX and boiler?

[cannonfodder]

You are pumping water into the boiler with the machines pump, which is adjusted to 9 bar. If the vacuum breaker is closed, and the wand open, it should not rise too high. However, if you have a small steam wand, the pump will pump water into the boiler faster than it can vent from the steam wand and your boiler pressure will shoot up. If it were to get dangerously high, the boiler emergency pressure release valve would open and give you a shower in descale water.

[mrgnomer]

Thanks Cannonfodder,

That makes sense. So after the pump stops pumping water at 9 bars of pressure into the boiler things will stabilize. So keeping the steam wand open to vent pressure as you're filling a nearly empty boiler with a pump set at 9 bar will work to stabilize pressure and keep it from shooting off the scale? And, when the water level in the boiler reaches set and the pump turns off would be the time to close off the steam valve and things should run normally from there? I appreciate the reply. Descaling wasn't that hard but again, I don't want to damage my machine with the mechanics of doing it.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I always take the steam tip off when over filling during boiler descaling just in case. This way there's never a problem. And kill the pump during over fill as soon as liquid is flowing from the steam wand simultaneously closing the steam wand.

[cannonfodder]

Thanks Cannonfodder,

That makes sense. So after the pump stops pumping water at 9 bars of pressure into the boiler things will stabilize. So keeping the steam wand open to vent pressure as you're filling a nearly empty boiler with a pump set at 9 bar will work to stabilize pressure and keep it from shooting off the scale? And, when the water level in the boiler reaches set and the pump turns off would be the time to close off the steam valve and things should run normally from there? I appreciate the reply. Descaling wasn't that hard but again, I don't want to damage my machine with the mechanics of doing it.

If I am understanding your question correctly, yes. If your pump can pump water into the boiler faster than the air can escape from the boiler, you will build up pressure. Like blowing through a straw. You can not evacuate air through the straw as fast as your lungs can blow so you end up pressure in your mouth. Same concept.

[mrgnomer]

I did find opening up the steam wand vented pressure to below pressurestat set. So I imagine the steam wand needs to stay open until the pump shuts off after the boiler water reaches it's set level.

Thanks again.

[mrgnomer]

I always take the steam tip off when over filling during boiler descaling just in case. This way there's never a problem. And kill the pump during over fill as soon as liquid is flowing from the steam wand simultaneously closing the steam wand.

Over filling wasn't the problem. Draining as much water out of the boiler after the overfill then filling it back up is when the machine acted strangely.

[KenL]

This is really testing my memory banks, but I seem to recall some discussions (probably on CoffeeGeek) that were along the lines of filling the boiler with descaling solution without overfilling, but then tilting the machine to drop the scale on the waterline below the solution. I realize that you'd have to tilt the machine at least twice (Right-side up and Left-side up) if not four times (Front-side up and Back-side up) -- any dangers in doing this? I know I'm being pretty lazy.

Thoughts?

[HB]

If you have an assistant to help you with the maneuver, it's worth a try. Tilting would fool the autofill into overfilling, especially if the probe is located on the left/right; it may not work as well if it's dead center. The Ulka E5 vibratory pump puts out ~600mls in 1 minute at ~1 bar, so you could calculate how much the level rose by timing how long the pump runs (left as an exercise for the reader).

[cannonfodder]

The scale should build up at the water line and below for the most part. You could slightly overfill the boiler but not top it off. Personally, I would fill the reservoir with descale solution (and an empty boiler), turn it on and let it fill as normal. Once full, disconnect the water level probe (one wire) and power it back on for 10-12 seconds, then power it off again. Then reattach the level probe wire, plug the machine back in (you did unplug it before you started sticking your hands inside the machine, right?) and let it heat and soak.

That would get the solution above the normal waterline and descale the majority of the deposits. Then flush, a lot, to clean it out and prepare it for use. The HX is even easier to descale, just lift the lever and let it fill with descale and sit, then flush.

[TimEggers]

First I want to thank you gentlemen for such an informative discussion. I used this information to descale my four-month-old Anita. She's been acting a little strange lately. I had been dreading doing this just out of intimidation. I suspected the Anita had been getting hard water due to our homes water softener running out of salt.

I decided an active descale was needed. I did things a little differently in that I did both the HX circuit and the boiler during the same session. Basically I brought the machine up to operating temps. I filled the water tank with a strong Cleancaf solution (its what I had). I then let the boiler run water through the hot water tap until the water coming out was a deep blue (yeah the Cleancaf was strong). I then tilted the unit to overfill the boiler. I then ran some water through the HX until it too came out blue. I then let the unit sit for about an hour (it was late and I didn't know if leaving Anita like that overnight was a good idea). Is it?

After an hour I began to flush everything. I overfilled the boiler a few times and flushed. I then proceeded to flush the HX. I flushed everything (including the steam wand) until the water came out crystal clean (about two tanks).

The Anita is running great so far today but I noticed that the boiler ran .2 bar or so higher then before the prescale. Why is that? Is it due to leaving the machine on while being overfilled? I adjusted the pstat back down and she's running great so I don't think I damaged/hurt anything. I did before the descale adjust the boiler pressure up for better steaming (about .3 bar). So why was Anita running hot after the descale?

All in all it went well and I got a lot of gunk (and green water) out of the boiler. Plus some granule gunk from the HX. Yes I think Anita was getting some hard water for the past month or so. Anyway just wanted to say thanks and offer my appreciation and a few questions.

[VWespress]

First of all I must apologize for my pour English skills - I hope I can make my self understood anyway.

I have a few questions.

I have bought a used BFC La Valentina Junior.
It is 5 months old but I don't think it has been running on soft water.
So I need to give it a real overhaul but before starting I will just make sure that I have understood it the right way.

I'm not that good with electronics so I hope to be able to do this without grounding the autofill?
Exactly why is it the autofill has to be shut when cleaning the HX

First I descale the Hx:

- Warm up the machine.
- Fill the water reservoir with the citric acid solution.
- Turn the pump on to flush the grouphead (E61).
- Leave it, with the heat on, for 10 minutes and flush again.
- Repeat 4 to 6 times.
- Refill the water reservoir with clean water.
- Flush thoroughly.

Then the boiler:

- Warm up the machine.
- Turn it off and drain it for water through the hot water tap while tilting the machine.
- Fill the water reservoir with the descaling solution (Citric acid).
- Turn the machine on again.
- Tilt the machine left/right to descale instead of disconnecting the autofill.
- Let it sit for hours.
- Repeat this with clean water in order to rinse it through.

If this is not correct please let me know. I'm really a newbie to this

Thanks

Martin

[HB]

I have bought a used BFC La Valentina Junior.
It is 5 months old but I don't think it has been running on soft water.

NB: These descale instructions are for removing light scale as part of preventative maintenance, not removing heavy scale, which requires stronger acids handled by a qualified repair technician. Check the E61 mushroom to determine the extent of the scale buildup.

So I need to give it a real overhaul but before starting I will just make sure that I have understood it the right way.

Your steps are about the same as Ian's Simplified HX descale.

I'm not that good with electronics so I hope to be able to do this without grounding the autofill?
Exactly why is it the autofill has to be shut when cleaning the HX

The autofill sensor is grounded when descaling the HX to prevent an inopportune boiler refill from drawing descaler into the steam boiler. OTOH, it would not matter if you plan to descale the steam boiler and do it after the HX descaling.

You do the opposite when descaling the boiler. Heavier scale forms at the boiler's water level. Momentarily disconnecting the autofill sensor forces the boiler to fill above its normal fill level, covering the scale with descaler solution. Tilting the machine can also force the boiler to fill higher than normal, depending on the sensor position.

As an aside, some espresso machines have an easily adjustable autofill sensor. A quick twist of the one below (f) on the Cimbali Junior DT1 will change the sensor's level.



The DT1 also has convenient boiler drain (d), which eliminates the need to drain the boiler through the water tap. Descaling is a lot easier when the manufacturer designs the machine with it in mind.

[VWespress]

Thanks a lot!

I will absolutely give it a go tomorrow afternoon!

The "mushroom'" is actually not looking that bad at all but it doesn't sound too good!

Once again - Thanks

Martin