Water, Scaling and Descaling with HX machines? - Page 3

[LeoZ]

I thoroughly overfill the boiler when I descale, water pumping out the steam wand for several seconds. When it heats I get water spitting out of the vacuum breaker valve. I put a towel around the breaker valve to soak up any spatter and keep another handy just in case it gets to wet.

You don't want water dripping off the boiler and onto the electronics. On my Isomac, the level box and circuits are under the boiler and behind a heat shield. Not the best design in my opinion.

i overfilled the boiler as well; i let the water come out of the water sensor hole, and when the boiler was filled, the vac breaker (?) and pressure relief valve(?) shot watery steam out of their relief holes as well. put the water level sensor back in, and let it sit for about 2 hours.

i kept the machine on since it held the heat nicely that way, but did cycle a LOT. i dont know if its b/c the panels were removed or b/c there was no steam 'headspace' to help it maintain equilibrium. i think im going to insulate the parts on it, not only for wire protection from the heat, but to help the thing from cycling so much. with such a small deadband (well, 1.5bar is tight to me!) it cycles too much, and i dont want electronics failing.

flushed it about 3 tankfulls of tap water, then drained the boiler and filled and flushed with my filtered water line.

all in all the process was uneventful; blueish water came out of the grouphead (flushed that as well), and out of hot water wand. weird thing was some black stuff came out of steam wand, maybe some milk that got sucked back in? i do run the steam quite a bit after i froth, but maybe some still manages to get lodged. im happy to see the machine run so rock solid with all the cycling i just put it through, thats certainly good news!

only ran 2 shots after cleaning to lube the machine up, all seems to be working well.

[e61brewski]

i should have asked this a LONG time ago.

but what if you live in an area where the tap water is just ridiculously soft? witness my local water system.

when i peruse jim's charts on the insanely long water faq, he seems to indicate that at this level of softness there would indeed be no scale build-up. is this true?

i use charcoal-filtered tap water in my isomac tea.

secondarily, of course, is the taste issue. jim tested some uber-soft water and reported "an unbalanced, overly bright shot of strong coffee with crema on top." this isn't remotely close to describing my own espresso. and i drink a good number of high quality shots from commercial establishments outside my home state.

what gives?

[another_jim]

i should have asked this a LONG time ago.

but what if you live in an area where the tap water is just ridiculously soft? witness my local water system.

Whoa, distilled tap water! This one could even make trouble for the level sensor in the boiler.

Fill the boiler every few weeks with this water, and you'll never have scale problems. For your coffee (tea and any other drinking) water, this is pretty terrible. You can get a calcite cartridge (installs just like a charcoal filter on water systems, but requires plumbing in a rack for the cartridges) to bring up the mineral level. The other alternative is a European still mineral water like Evian or Vichy, which contain about 10 times the level of minerals good for coffee. Four ounces of that per tank will bring you up to a reasonable level.

[randomperson]

another_jim -- have you any opinions about Poland Spring Water? I'm using that exclusively in La Valentina in the fond hope that it will render descaling unnecessary!

[another_jim]

another_jim -- have you any opinions about Poland Spring Water? I'm using that exclusively in La Valentina in the fond hope that it will render descaling unnecessary!

Last time I checked, it was around 5 grains hardness, good for coffee, but will scale.

[e61brewski]

Whoa, distilled tap water! This one could even make trouble for the level sensor in the boiler.

interesting. because every great once in awhile, the autofill will kick in to top off the boiler, then refuse to stop for a good 30 seconds. the pump just goes and goes. this is rare -- 6 times or so i can ever remember, and i run the machine 24/7. but the softness could be culprit, eh?

Fill the boiler every few weeks with this water, and you'll never have scale problems.

sweet action. no scale for me!

For your coffee (tea and any other drinking) water, this is pretty terrible.

i still don't get this. call me a brick-tongue, but i've had many great shots produced elsewhere from places like intelly, swilled a huge amount in charlotte this year, etc. and i just don't taste the difference you've described. obviously, my shot-to-shot is more sporadic, less consistently robust in the bod department. but definitely nothing on par with "overly bright shot of strong coffee with crema on top." am i just retromingent? taste-blind?

You can get a calcite cartridge ... The other alternative is a European still mineral water like Evian or Vichy, which contain about 10 times the level of minerals good for coffee. Four ounces of that per tank will bring you up to a reasonable level.

hmmm, interesting idea. though if the tay-AH is plumbed in, neither one sounds practical.



the local water system has always bragged it has some of the "best water in the country." amazing i never realized what that meant.

[betxs]

Dan,

What size and type/material is the o-ring for the mushroom? Do the different colors of o-rings have something to do with their uses?

Do you or anyone else know where to buy o-rings online, but not from espresso supply shops? I think that I've seen some online o-ring sellers, but I guess I would need to know the size, type, etc.

Thank you to anyone that will be of help!!!

MikeC



"Politics have no relation to morals."
NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI

Added for reference, before/after scale buildup on an E61 "mushroom":

[HB]

I'm not an expert on O-rings, but it looked pretty ordinary to me. I suppose the color could be a temperature rating. The boys at espressoparts.com could confirm if this O-ring is imbued with special properties. Or take the old one to your local plumbing supply for a replacement (places like Ace Hardware have a selection of O-rings of every size and material imaginable in the open bins).

[cannonfodder]

When I rebuilt my Faema I replaced every O-ring, seal, and gasket on it. I purchased everything at the local hardware store. The only unique bits were the heating element gasket, which came with my new heating element, and the group to frame insulating gasket.

[cajun_brew]

Can't Citric acid be used to descale the HX or is Cleancaf a must?

Probably going to descale my 11 month old Anita shortly.

[HB]

Cleancaf is a mild descaler and detergent that was designed for convenient maintenance of coffee machines and single boiler machines like the Rancilio Silvia (it even includes a blue dye to assure the consumer they've rinsed enough). You could use it for the HX, but citric acid works fine and is dirt cheap. Citric acid is recommended for the steam boiler too since its non-toxic and effective

PS: Jim Schulman once warned that "you'll be blowing bubbles for weeks" if you use Cleancaf in the steam boiler, but I've never confirmed his claim.

[cajun_brew]

Ok I scored some citric acid today and have been reading everything I can on descaling the HX and steam boiler.

Question..... to disable the auto fill simply pull off the wire, and slap it on the inner shell of machine with electrical tape? If it's too short I'm assuming I can just add wire to reach? I understand you're trying to ground it so it won't kick on when descaling the HX.

Or it seems you could slightly over fill the boiler to make sure it doesn't kick in:
--fill boiler to normal level
--take off the auto fill wire, flip machine on and let it run for few seconds
--reconnect wire and make sure steam and hot water valves are closed well.

This should ensure that the auto fill doesn't run when descaling the HX.

Any thoughts??

[HB]

Your approach would certainly work, i.e., overfilling the boiler slightly so autofill can't occur. The autofill on my machine rarely kicks in unexpectedly, so I just descale the HX first and then the steam boiler.

[Teme]

Your approach would certainly work, i.e., overfilling the boiler slightly so autofill can't occur. The autofill on my machine rarely kicks in unexpectedly, so I just descale the HX first and then the steam boiler.

I recently had an interesting debate (in another forum) regarding the benefits and risks of overfilling the boiler of a HX machine during descaling. The consensus appeared to be against overfilling.

Br,
Teme

[HB]

OK, I'll bite. What were the benefits/risks being debated?

[cajun_brew]

I recently had an interesting debate (in another forum) regarding the benefits and risks of overfilling the boiler of a HX machine during descaling. The consensus appeared to be against overfilling.

Br,
Teme

Interesting Teme....what's the down side??

Certainly you have to at least slightly over fill the steam boiler with descaling solution to clean where the top of the water sits in the boiler...right??

I've read the descaling part of your blog a few times (nicely done!) to get info on how to get started......would you descale differently now??

[Teme]

OK, I'll bite. What were the benefits/risks being debated?

I hope the link works. The debate was on TMC, on this thread. I think Dave is a knowledgeable pro and had valid arguments. There was a caveat regarding having a thorough understanding of the inner workings of one's machine, though. Part of the disagreement was due to the fact that we were talking about different machine components (I got this wrong in this case and put it down to the language barrier if you dont mind). Nevertheless, I think it was an interesting discussion that I hope is of use to others.

Br,
Teme

[HB]

Thanks for the link, Teme. Dave's made some good points, specifically here.

Anytime one removes the casing, there's a risk of electrical shock should the owner neglect to unplug the machine. One can add the usual lawyerly warnings about risk of death, fire, destruction of property, etc., but the fact is the manufacturer doesn't certify these machines as "consumer repairable." In addition to the potential personal risk, accidently pressurizing the boiler with the pump would be a very bad thing for the machine (it's only factory tested around 2-3 bar, not 16 bar! And the pressurestat is accustom to only ~1.2 bar). Of course, I keep the steam wand open during the entire operation, so that's not possible, but if somebody forgets...

Chris Nachtrieb once said to me that descaling the HX is really what matters and that's simple. He argues that few actually drink the steam boiler water and a little waterline scale isn't worth getting excited about. I have to agree with him and Dave, running descaler through the HX and then filling with descaler / flushing the steam boiler is a no-brainer and would deal with almost all of the scale build-up.

[Teme]

Thanks for the link, Teme. Dave's made some good points, specifically here.

Anytime one removes the casing, there's a risk of electrical shock should the owner neglect to unplug the machine. One can add the usual lawyerly warnings about risk of death, fire, destruction of property, etc., but the fact is the manufacturer doesn't certify these machines as "consumer repairable." In addition to the potential personal risk, accidently pressurizing the boiler with the pump would be a very bad thing for the machine (it's only factory tested around 2-3 bar, not 16 bar! And the pressurestat is accustom to only ~1.2 bar). Of course, I keep the steam wand open during the entire operation, so that's not possible, but if somebody forgets...

Chris Nachtrieb once said to me that descaling the HX is really what matters and that's simple. He argues that few actually drink the steam boiler water and a little waterline scale isn't worth getting excited about. I have to agree with him and Dave, running descaler through the HX and then filling with descaler / flushing the steam boiler is a no-brainer and would deal with almost all of the scale build-up.

I agree. But going about descaling the boiler on HX and forgetting to open the steam valve is akin to forgetting to put on shoes when you leave the house in my opinion

I think the point here is that descaling is necessary at regular intervals and if one is unsure of how to go about doing it (even after reading this thread and the linked posts), it may be better to approach a local pro who do know their stuff.

Br,
Teme

[cajun_brew]

Of course, I keep the steam wand open during the entire operation, so that's not possible, but if somebody forgets...

Are you talking about having the steam wand open during the overfilling of the steam boiler???, then closed to descale with the heating element on...right?

Chris Nachtrieb once said to me that descaling the HX is really what matters and that's simple. He argues that few actually drink the steam boiler water and a little waterline scale isn't worth getting excited about. I have to agree with him and Dave, running descaler through the HX and then filling with descaler / flushing the steam boiler is a no-brainer and would deal with almost all of the scale build-up.

I think the point here is that descaling is necessary at regular intervals and if one is unsure of how to go about doing it (even after reading this thread and the linked posts), it may be better to approach a local pro who do know their stuff.

Br,
Teme

After reading the thread on TMC I may rethink how I descale the steam boiler.

Want to make sure I understand.... The main danger discussed was overfilling the steam boiler with the steam valve closed and causing too much pressure to build up in the boiler? This is magnified by heating the boiler? I think I have a pretty good idea about the basic workings of an HX machine, but it seems there are a lot of things I don't have a good enough grip on to be able to work myself out of a unforeseen incident.


I may just leave auto fill attached and descale just to the water level in the boiler. While that's going on seems like a good time to descale the HX.