Water, Scaling and Descaling with HX machines? - Page 2

[Teme]

Thank you Dan. Descaling the HX is tomorrow morning's agenda.

Br,
Teme

[Teme]

The first phase of the descaling process is now completed, i.e. the heat-exchanger. I also posted on my blog regarding this. Next weekend it is time to descale the boiler. I used Cleancaf for the HX, but I am not quite sure if this is best solution for the boiler descaling - should I use citric acid instead?

Thanks again for all the help and support!

Br,
Teme

[HB]

I used Cleancaf for the HX, but I am not quite sure if this is best solution for the boiler descaling - should I use citric acid instead?

Yes, use citric acid unless you want the steam wand to blow bubbles for the next few weeks (Cleancaf has detergents in it). You can buy citric acid by the pound at brewer supply stores, or in a pinch, Jim suggested cheap "imitation" lemon juice since it's really citric acid in solution.

[Teme]

Boiler descaling completed. It was uneventful process with the only concern being a vacuum breaker that did initially not seem to be sealing properly after the descaling (some scale ended up on the valve, perhaps?). However, in connection to the boiler rinsing the vacuum breaker also started sealing well again.

Thanks again for all the help. Now that I have done this once I feel comfortable doing it on a regular basis going forward.

Br,
Teme

[Teme]

Well, apparently things did not go smoothly after all. I switched the Andreja on and went out to grab a bite to eat, hoping to get a nice shot of espresso upon my return. Before I left, the Andreja was heating up normally (as it had done earlier on in the day after the descaling). However, upon my return the machine was warm but no longer heating and the boiler was at zero pressure. The light indicating that the heating element is on is lit up and the machine receives power, but it is not heating up. I will open it up later to check if the hi-limit protection on the heating element has tripped but any tips on what could be wrong?:-(

Oh. I did get a cup of coffee - contingency procedures were initiated and the Pavoni served me well

Br,
Teme

[jrtatl]

Hi Teme,

Let's hope you do not have the same problem I had earlier this year. I descaled the boiler in my Expobar back in the Spring. After descaling, the heating element literally split open (see below photos). There was just enough electricity going into the element to warm the water.

I don't know if the descaling caused this, or merely hastened it. The techician that repaired my machine said he had never seen a heating element split and uncoil like that. He thought it was a manufacturing defect, but admitted that was just a guess.

As you might guess, my only solution was to replace the element.









Good luck,

Jeremy

[Teme]

Hi Jeremy,

I opened up the Andreja and fortunately it seems that it was only the hi-limit switch that had tripped. I reset it and the Andreja is up and running again. I still wonder what actually made it trip? The timing indicates that it is connected to the descaling. I will need to keep an eye on the machine for any abnormalities. For now, as a precaution, I am also taking out the timer it is connected to...

Br,
Teme

[another_jim]

I will open it up later to check if the hi-limit protection on the heating element has tripped but any tips on what could be wrong?:-(

Emptying and refilling the boiler can cause this if the heater is not locked out when the autofill is running (the Giemme is supposed to do this, but mine doesn't). The heater is running in air and could trip the safety stat. especially if the refill is slowed. I blew my thermal link after flushing my boiler and replacing the hose end softener with one that was nearly jammed.

[cannonfodder]

I descaled my Isomac last weekend. I had the same issue with the vacuum breaker valve but it resolved itself. The entire process was quite easy. The green water was interesting (cleaned out the oxidation from the brass). I got quite a bit of particulate, fine sand like sediment. I was surprised how much smoother it works. I must have had a little deposit in the lever, the annoying squeeeeek, I got when I lowered my E61 lever is now resolved, works like new.

[Teme]

Emptying and refilling the boiler can cause this if the heater is not locked out when the autofill is running (the Giemme is supposed to do this, but mine doesn't). The heater is running in air and could trip the safety stat. especially if the refill is slowed. I blew my thermal link after flushing my boiler and replacing the hose end softener with one that was nearly jammed.

This makes sense. However, the safety was not tripped during the refills, if was tripped afterwards when the boiler was at the normal level and the machine was heating up.

Nevertheless, after resetting the switch the machine has been running faultlessly. Next time I descale, I will lift off the water reservoir so that the water level sensor thinks that the tank is low on water and hence disables the heating element during the refill, while still allowing the pump to run (at least in the Andreja). To heat up for another boiler drain, I will then just lift the reservoir back on.

I descaled my Isomac last weekend. I had the same issue with the vacuum breaker valve but it resolved itself. The entire process was quite easy. The green water was interesting (cleaned out the oxidation from the brass). I got quite a bit of particulate, fine sand like sediment. I was surprised how much smoother it works. I must have had a little deposit in the lever, the annoying squeeeeek, I got when I lowered my E61 lever is now resolved, works like new.

Yes, it was surprisingly easy with Jim's clear instructions. I did not get much sediment at all - I take this to be a good sign (i.e. not much scale buildup).

Br,
Teme

[cannonfodder]

I was glad to get a little particulate in the water, that way I know I did it correctly. I use filtered water so what I refer to as 'quite a bit' may be next to nothing on someone else's machine. It is the first time this machine has been descaled (about 11 months old).

I was going to cut the water level sensor wire and install a momentary push button switch under the drip tray but I was not sure if it was NO or NC while I was at the store. I just pulled the lead off the sensor, opened my steam wand valve and let it fill until it ran out of the wand. Then gave it another 15 seconds or so. I let it heat a bit, then turned it all off and let it sit. Then repeated the process two more times. Over half a day.

Ironically, I think the hardest part is flushing out the descale liquid. I ran two reservoirs of clean water through the boiler and HX line. I kept flushing until the water was nice and clear, then a couple of additional flushes for good measure.

[barry]

Ironically, I think the hardest part is flushing out the descale liquid. I ran two reservoirs of clean water through the boiler and HX line. I kept flushing until the water was nice and clear, then a couple of additional flushes for good measure.

if you're using a citric acid descaler, just keep flushing until the water no longer has any sourness. it takes a whole lot of water to flush.

[bigjp]

I just wanted to publicly thank Another_Jim and everyone else here for the instructions on descaling. I did both the HX and boiler on my Tea and everything went just fine (I think). I'm having one problem, but it could be a choice of a few things (I'll post a new thread on it so I don't hijack this one).

I've posted 5 new threads for problems I've had with my Tea since I've owned it over at CG. Each problem was correctly solved by Another_Jim, so I am truly thankful to you for all that you offer on these boards. There were others who chimed in on the threads, but Jim was the guy who cracked each case. So just in case I'm not making my point clear......THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

For anyone who hasn't descaled and owned a machine for a while, I highly recommend it. I am very surprised at how much better the water tastes. It's still too early to judge shot quality because I'm having the problem I mentioned above, but I'm sure once I get everything back in order it will be better.

One thing that I did notice was that after descaling my vacuum breaker pops up without making a big water mess. I was having a lot of wiring problems because it would soak the inside of my machine before popping up. Now it just hisses a bit, makes some gurgling noises, and pops up with only a few drops coming out. The water in Japan is VERY soft, so there wasn't much scale that came out. But it's nice to know that things are cleaned up in there.

[HB]

Added for reference, before/after scale buildup on an E61 "mushroom":


No scale buildup


See Sputtering e61 & HX scale build-up - Cured! for more details

[miKe mcKoffee]

Plan to stop by a local brewers supply tomorrow to pick up some citric acid. Been running the Bricoletta with about 7grain/120ppm filtered water for 8 months now so figured I'd best quit putting off descaling before scale becomes a problem! I know water is a bit hard but it tastes good so haven't bothered with a softener.

I'll add my thanks to Jim for great descaling directions and the rest who've added to this thread. Makes the thought of descaling a direct connect HX mucho less intimidating. In fact should be a piece of cake. Already verified the auto-fill sensor location and tested. Now that's a wire you wouldn't want to fall off! Don't plan on adding a T to the supply line, figure I'll simply slide the John Guest connected line off mains line and put it in a jug of citric acid solution placed on a shelf above the Bric'.

Probably wait to do the descaling 'til the Barksdale pstat I ordered last Friday arrives. Install it while waiting for boiler descaling to do its work.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Descale the HX like you descale a home machine:
-- ground the autofill wand (see above)
-- fill the tank with the descale solution.
-- flush the group with four ounces worth, wait 10 minutes, and repeat.
-- repeat this 4 to 6 times.
-- refill the tank with water
-- restore the autofill
-- flush the group till the taste is gone (start with 1 quart before tasting). If anyone has one with a big honking HX like the Cimbali's, please jump in with revised quantities.

Might add descaler backflushing to this section as suggested by tech I talked to at Chris' Coffee. (We talked over intended procedure once I convinced him I wouldn't hold them liable for any problems arising from descaling a direct connect rotary HX. ) Also since I pretty well know the Bric's auto fill tendencies didn't ground/disable auto-fill, simply made sure boiler was full to normal first by forcing fill via hotwater purge.

FWIW the rotary Bricoletta sucks the solution from a container no problem lack of line pressure. No need for a line T, once pressure relieved John Guest fitting slides off easily. The only bad part of letting the descaling solution just sit there doing it's work in the boiler is now won't be able to pull a shot for hours!

[another_jim]

Might add descaler backflushing to this section as suggested by tech I talked to at Chris' Coffee.

Good idea, but there is a gotcha. The inside of many groups are, alas, chromed. The E61 is one of these. Eventually the chrome peels little by little and ends up in the grounds, so it's no big deal. One person decided to descale, then backflush. Detergent is highly alkaline, so he gave his group a super foamy bicarbonate and peroxide style rinse which took all the chrome off in one fell swoop. Make sure not to telescope descaling and cleaning into one session (the home machine compound that does both has no acid, but uses ultra-alkaline detergents)

[miKe mcKoffee]

Post descaling both the HX and boiler direct connect Bricoletta thoughts or tips:

1) Initially drain the boiler as you would for shipping then fill with descaling solution to normal fill level letting it come fully up to temp. Draining first will help ensure better strength descaling solution in the boiler than just flushing water out and descaling solution in.

2) Flush descaler through the group and then backflush the group with descaler before overfilling the boiler. Hot descaling solution works faster than cold per techs I talked to. Once boiler overfilled not advisable to try and fully heat boiler.

3) Now overfill the boiler with descaling solution until it runs out the steam wand as liquid. When over filling the boiler it'll dump the boiler pressure and drop the vacuum breaker stem, so hold it up with needle nose pliers to greatly minimize any descaling solution getting inside the machine's innards. A bit may still come out so have a towel wrapped around it. Once you turn off the machine and close the steam wand ok to let the vac stem drop.

4) While the machine is sitting there letting the descaling solution do its thing periodically turn the machine back on for 15 or 20 seconds or so to keep the descaling solution in the boiler good and hot. But not long enough to force water out the vac breaker. The Bric's boiler will sort of start to rumble before that point is reached. Let the rumbling/heating continue and pressure will build forcing descaler out. At this same time solution backflush again since it's not a closed system holding the solution like the HX path or boiler (makes sense to me anyway).

5) To flush descaler from the boiler first open the water wand then turn on the machine and hold up that vac breaker stem! (And make sure the auto-fill sensor has been put back on, oops.) After enough descaler has dumped from the boiler to engage auto-fill ok to let the stem down and now close the water wand and let the boiler come up to full pressure. Now turn off and drain the boiler same as step 1. (on the Bric' tipping the machine towards the right, the Bric' that's the hotwater feed side of the boiler). Draining first will greatly reduce the amount of fresh water flushing needed.

6) After filling to normal lever and flushing about a boiler's worth fresh water I let it come up to full temp and then over-filled boiler with fresh water. Figured since the worst scale is at the water line and descaling solution had completely filled the boiler made sense to completely fill with fresh water. I actually did this three times, each time draining to normal fill level and coming back up to full temp before next over-fill. The third time didn't seem to get any additional loose scale particulates.

Descaling a direct connect HX machine really was easy thanks to the directions from those who have gone before and taken the time to document the procedures!

Interestingly as other's have mentioned my lever action is now smoother and totally squeak free quiet. Smoother and quieter than even when new! Don't need no stinkin' food grade grease.

[LeoZ]

bringing a good thread back alive - is it ok to leave the machine on while the boiler sits with citric acid solution? only thing ive noticed is that when it cycles to heat up, it goes past the stock 1.1bar quicker, stops at around 1.3-1.4bar, then begins its drop. id assume this is b/c there is no steam buffer in the tank, its all water. hope its ok, i thought it would be good to help keep the machine hot.

ive already filled and have it sitting, and have flushed the hx while i started waiting. too bad this isnt something where you can see the results!

[cannonfodder]

I thoroughly overfill the boiler when I descale, water pumping out the steam wand for several seconds. When it heats I get water spitting out of the vacuum breaker valve. I put a towel around the breaker valve to soak up any spatter and keep another handy just in case it gets to wet.

You don't want water dripping off the boiler and onto the electronics. On my Isomac, the level box and circuits are under the boiler and behind a heat shield. Not the best design in my opinion.