Water Filtering/softening and line pressure

[Grant]

Hi All....I posted a related thread over on Coffeegeek, but didn't get too much response. I am still a bit nervous on the topic so hope maybe someone here can aid....

I am taking possession on a rotary vane pump Bricoletta pretty soon (still fighting with Canadian customs)...and one of my concerns is with connecting it up to our city water supply. I do not have any room for a Flojet system near the machine, but a water line is handy. I have been looking at filter/softening systems, and one vendor has suggested the Everpure QL3BH system, that has built in scale reduction and 1/2 micron filtering. Our water hardness here (so I am told by the city) is about 170 gm/l...so fairly hard.

The everpure system suggested seems to be too much directed on filtering, and perhaps not enough on the softening side.

I am also concerned if the output pressure drops too much after coming through the filter (particularly after use for a while) that it will be strong enough for the Bricoletta

So... does anyone have any suggestions on water system that would be suitable for a rotary vane pump machine. I see an interesting (and cheap) system at Chris's Coffee, but can find nothing similar locally.

All the local shops have lots of very economical filtering equipment, but I can't seem to find a Canadian distributor of a simple Cation softener cartridge.

All thoughts appreciated.

Grant

[HB]

I am also concerned if the output pressure drops too much after coming through the filter (particularly after use for a while) that it will be strong enough for the Bricoletta.

The necessary flow rate is pretty feeble, so I wouldn't worry about pressure drops through the filter for city lines. I have the filter system from Chris' Coffee you mentioned. It's a good price and uses standard parts, although I'll defer to Jim Schulman (author of the Insanely Long Water FAQ) on the specific merits of a given softener system. Chris Tacy has mentioned a few times his preference for Everpure products in his reviews and in the forums, saying they are well made, well designed, and well supported. He mentioned Omnipure as the another alternative, but says they're less well supported and don't have as full a range.

[DavidMLewis]

I am taking possession on a rotary vane pump Bricoletta pretty soon (still fighting with Canadian customs)...and one of my concerns is with connecting it up to our city water supply. I do not have any room for a Flojet system near the machine, but a water line is handy. I have been looking at filter/softening systems, and one vendor has suggested the Everpure QL3BH system, that has built in scale reduction and 1/2 micron filtering. Our water hardness here (so I am told by the city) is about 170 gm/l...so fairly hard.

The everpure system suggested seems to be too much directed on filtering, and perhaps not enough on the softening side.

I am also concerned if the output pressure drops too much after coming through the filter (particularly after use for a while) that it will be strong enough for the Bricoletta

First of all, you'll have to decide how often you'll be willing to descale the machine. Your hardness, at 170 ppm, isn't very far off the ideal for the taste of the espresso, but will scale your boiler, particularly if you don't draw off hot water on a regular basis. The "scale reduction" filters aren't generally recommended for espresso machines. I don't know if they reduce the scale, but I'm told the phosphate they use will affect the taste. What I'd do is sit down with Jim's FAQ and a calculator, and figure out how many times a year you'll need to descale. If it's in the range of two, as I rather suspect it will be, my advice would be to just use carbon and sediment filters, followed by a regulator, and be done with it. If it works out to be a frequency you find unacceptable, then you're looking at a more complicated system, involving a softener someplace.

Best,
David

[Spencer]

We have the Bricoletta and we're using the carbon filter, but not the water softening system. There is a pressure regulator in the line between the filter and the Bricoletta and we have it set down to 25psi and haven't experienced any pressure problems or issues with the machine in the month or so that we have had it. The system, as well as the recommendation for the regulator, comes from Chris' Coffee.

[another_jim]

The hardness of 170 mg/L, if that is correct, is **very** hard (if this is not a TDS reading), and will require a softener. You'd be descaling every month or two otherwise. This is especially true for a plumbed in machine, since flush descaling will require disconnecting the water supply and feeding in a citric acid solution from a tank. If the the Bric's large boiler doesn't have a drain, flushing through the water tap will also be lengthy. However, since it's a rotary pump, it can run flat out without rests, so that would balance it out.

The simplest softening system for a plumbed in machine is a standard cation tank like this:

http://www.1st-line.com/parts/other/watsftnr_comm.htm (you can check with Jim if he ships to Canada)

it is standard equipment on every Italian espresso machine I've ever seen. Italian water is mostly very hard, since the entire country is blessed by limestone soils (which is why the food and wine are so good), and cation softeners involve considerably less fuss and expense than reverse osmosis systems for this hardness level. However, one cannot "engineer" the water to precise specs with a cation system.

I am not familiar with Everpure's (or anyone else's) part numbers. However phosphate softeners are not favored for espresso machines. Barry Jarrett tried it once and found it interfered with extraction. Recently Danny McNulty became a test-bunny for one when assured that they worked great. He ended up with his boiler filled with a soft phosphate/calcium sludge -- not as bad as chipping off limescale, but still requiring a machine disassembly to clean. Since the water is not flowing in an espresso boiler, the suspended phosphate particles obviously settle ...

[HB]

This is especially true for a plumbed in machine, since flush descaling will require disconnecting the water supply and feeding in a citric acid solution from a tank. If the the Bric's large boiler doesn't have a drain, flushing through the water tap will also be lengthy.

Since it's an HX machine, running citric solution through the group should address where scale is most likely to collect - around the "mushroom" - right?


From Sputtering e61 & HX scale build-up - Cured!

I've not worked out the math, but I believe this regime is consistent with your FAQ:

So once a week, put very soft water into your tank and flush the boiler with it until the water has been softened down. The flushing technique is the same as that described in the descaling section... If these procedures are followed, there's technically no need to descale the boiler at all. Nevertheless, an annual or biannual descaling is wise to pick up any stray scale that may have formed due to forgetfullness.

I added a tee just after the pressure regulator for this purpose that runs into a bottle of distilled water. Turn off the stopcock to the city water inlet, open the stopcock for the bottle inlet. The pump won't mind running without positive pressure (IIRC, the Procon pump is spec'd at six foot vertical lift). I haven't inspected the inside of the boiler though...

[Grant]

The hardness of 170 mg/L, if that is correct, is **very** hard (if this is not a TDS reading), and will require a softener. You'd be descaling every month or two otherwise. This is especially true for a plumbed in machine, since flush descaling will require disconnecting the water supply and feeding in a citric acid solution from a tank. If the the Bric's large boiler doesn't have a drain, flushing through the water tap will also be lengthy. However, since it's a rotary pump, it can run flat out without rests, so that would balance it out....

I called the city water department and that is the number they gave me. As a "back-up" to this (I just thought of this...duh!), I have a hot-tub here at home, and a few years back when the city used to soften the water, I had to add calcium to get the water to a hardness range recommended for hot tub water of 150-200ppm. In the last two years, now when I fill the tub and get the water checked, it is "perfect" for the hot tub out of the hose and I do not have to add calcium. Looking at my last hot-tub water test sheet, it says the hardness is 190. TDS is in the 1500 range.....(oooops...time to drain the tub again for winter!)

The simplest softening system for a plumbed in machine is a standard cation tank like this:

http://www.1st-line.com/parts/other/watsftnr_comm.htm (you can check with Jim if he ships to Canada)

Exactly what I am looking for....I will see if I can order one for Canada shipment....*sigh* Another dealing with Canada customs!

I am not familiar with Everpure's (or anyone else's) part numbers. However phosphate softeners are not favored for espresso machines. Barry Jarrett tried it once and found it interfered with extraction. Recently Danny McNulty became a test-bunny for one when assured that they worked great. He ended up with his boiler filled with a soft phosphate/calcium sludge -- not as bad as chipping off limescale, but still requiring a machine disassembly to clean. Since the water is not flowing in an espresso boiler, the suspended phosphate particles obviously settle ...

Excellent to know....many thanks. Glad I checked in here first.

Grant

[barry]

grant,

if you'd like an everpure 7-SO softener (or any other everpure stuff), let me know and i can pick one up for you from a local distributor.

at work we use a K-10 coarse filter, MC micron filter, and a SO-24 mega-softener.

at home, i use an MC and a 7-SO.


--barry

[Grant]

grant,

if you'd like an everpure 7-SO softener (or any other everpure stuff), let me know and i can pick one up for you from a local distributor.

--barry

Thanks for the offer Barry.....since I just noticed that my Bricoletta just cleared customs (YEAH!!!! - She has been in jail there for over a week as I fought to convince customs that it was a commercial grade machine and free of duty instead of paying 9%), I quicky order the rechargable softener from 1st line. Hopefully it will get here fast so I don't have to run the Bric on hard water...I am not a patient person. In the long haul should be an economical unit.

Now...just to need get a decent filter and a pressure reg....but those I can get easily and locally....

Grant

[another_jim]

This is especially true for a plumbed in machine, since flush descaling will require disconnecting the water supply and feeding in a citric acid solution from a tank. If the the Bric's large boiler doesn't have a drain, flushing through the water tap will also be lengthy.

Since it's an HX machine, running citric solution through the group should address where scale is most likely to collect - around the "mushroom" - right?

Wow, that's a good bit of scale; I guess it doesn't deposit evenly. When I wrote the FAQ, I thought the group would be pretty protected from this sort of buildup (not from bits fouling the gicleur though). Obviously with the thermosyphon, this is false, since the calcium gets suspended out in the HX, then deposits all along the thermosyphon path.

The HX is an easy flushout, since it isn't high capacity (even the honking big Cimbali one probably doesn't hold more than a liter), so you won't spend forever rinsing it. Just descale it like a single boiler machine.

I've not worked out the math, but I believe this regime is consistent with your FAQ:

So once a week, put very soft water into your tank and flush the boiler with it until the water has been softened down. The flushing technique is the same as that described in the descaling section... If these procedures are followed, there's technically no need to descale the boiler at all. Nevertheless, an annual or biannual descaling is wise to pick up any stray scale that may have formed due to forgetfullness.

I added a tee just after the pressure regulator for this purpose that runs into a bottle of distilled water. Turn off the stopcock to the city water inlet, open the stopcock for the bottle inlet. The pump won't mind running without positive pressure (IIRC, the Procon pump is spec'd at six foot vertical lift). I haven't inspected the inside of the boiler though...

Yeah, this is the "boiler-blowdown." How often you need to do it depends on how often you steam. I do two milk drinks a day and do it every two weeks or so running about 4 grain water (75 mg/L) water. Remember, this should be done even when using softened water, since steaming will unsoften even the softest water eventually (i.e. minerals + water in; only water out).

[Grant]

The simplest softening system for a plumbed in machine is a standard cation tank like this:

http://www.1st-line.com/parts/other/watsftnr_comm.htm (you can check with Jim if he ships to Canada)

<snip>....However, one cannot "engineer" the water to precise specs with a cation system.

So, I am thinking that after implementing this softener system, it would probably be wise to take a water sample occasionally. Is there any value in taking a hardness reading from the hot water wand of the machine? Taking it from the input side will tell me what is going into the espresso machine and then I can do all the math again to determine descaling needs. I could add a "tee" in the line so I can drain water out for testing or also use it as an input (while disconnecting the softener feed) if I want to add descaling solution to the line. Since I already test water for our hot tub, I can get a hardness test kit as well since I currently do Bromine levels, Alkalinity, and Ph weekly?

Grant