Warning: Filthy Images! How to Descale a Lever?

[Hogfire]

G'day all,

Well, I'm wondering what members here use to descale their boilers/elements? I've had this machine for a little over a year, and I assumed the Clean-Caf I was using was doing it's job. WRONG! !

The details:

1. I use bottled spring water when I can (about 60% of the time), Britta filtered tap water when I forget to replenish.

2. I used the Clean-Caf about every 3 months.

3. Yesterday was the first time I removed the element and really looked into the boiler. Yes, I was shocked!

4. Last night, I used a packet of Clean-caf, let the element run through cycles for about two hours, and left the solution in the boiler overnight.

5. This morning, I removed the element expecting clean surfaces, and this is what I spotted (no real change from before, Hummppff!).


Heating Element


Boiler


So, any advice? The machine is taking about 5 mins longer now to reach operating temp, and I don't want to stress out the components. I believe I read somewhere that the Britta doesn't remove minerals, just chemicals, but I didn't realise our tap water was so hard.

I want to be clean again!

Hogfire

[roadman]

The water I have is pretty hard. I've had good luck with citric acid. Mild yet effective.

I've used Durgol several times early on but I found it foamed a lot. Immediately after a decalcification session using Durgol I noticed the ancient seals on the site glass of my old Europiccola started leaking slightly. Granted the seals would have needed replacement sooner rather than later, but it felt to me like this foamy stuff definitely hastened their demise. Then again maybe the only thing keeping it from leaking was the scale buildup.

Jon

[srobinson]

Should I send directions on my wire brush technique? Hopefully you don't have to resort to that....

[cannonfodder]

Where in Indianapolis are you? My wife is going out over the weekend for a church thing. I can give her a couple packets of the delimer I used if you want to go by the hotel and pick them up. Works wonderfully, and quickly.

I descaled my Factory this weekend. It was not as bad as yours, but it only took about 20 minutes of soaking to get everything spotless. I also used the same stuff on my Faema rebuild. I just mixed up a batch, poured it into the boiler, turned it on to heat until I just started to get some pressure (210F) and let it sit. Dumped, rinsed three times, filled, heated, flushed refill. Took less than one hour start to finish.

[Hogfire]

Wow,

I'm just floored by the consideration and kindness displayed by members of this forum. What a great group to be a part of!

Yes siree, I've been frustrated to no end trying to get rid of the diamond-hard scale from my stressed and compromised machine. Tried a double-dose of Clean-caf, no change to the heating element and only able to wipe out a minimal amount from the boiler walls. Then I tried citric acid, again, nada. Steve, I'm very tempted to try your method, but then I come to my senses and realise that I'd probably tear up the heating element, lose my balance, and wind up shredding my face to ribbons. I'm moronic like that sometimes!

Cannonfodder, your offer is too generous, and I'd be very grateful to try some of the industrial delimer you have access to. I live just outside of downtown, and if your wife doesn't mind, I'd be able to drive anywhere to meet. PM me at my username, gmail. How's the Faema coming along? I've been reading about your progress with great interest!

A great big thanks to all,

Hogfire

[cannonfodder]

No problem. I cant really say who it is Mcmade for because it is a McProprietary McProduct. But if look real Mchard you may figure out what McRestaurant we supply.

This stuff is incredible and was made for coffee machines, ice machines etc. Heat is the key, the hotter the solution, the quicker it works.

The Faema is pumping out liquid love.

[cannonfodder]

Did you get the stuff?

[Hogfire]

No, but I did get banged up pretty badly in a car accident Saturday morning, spent the night in hospital. Sent details to your PM address. Painkillers are keeping me from thinking and planning at the moment, I'll decide what to do tomorrow if your wife left the packets at the front desk. Please relay my apologies to her, and thanks for all your help.

Hogfire

[srobinson]

Sorry to hear that...best wishes on a speedy recovery.

[cannonfodder]

I got your email. Sorry to hear about the accident, glad it was not any worse. She did leave the package at the front desk of the hotel. Hopefully they will hold on to it for a couple of days. If not, let me know and I will toss some in the mail.

Rest up. It may be difficult to pull shots with an injured back.

[Hogfire]

Cheers for the well-wishes,

Was a bit worried myself as I broke my back 2 years ago snowboarding (unbelievable adventures deep in the backcountry in northern Japan, don't regret it one bit though), however, the doc says everything spinal appears in order. Back made o' whalebone I reckon (well, still a bit painful, but no major problems)!

Dave, I popped round 3 different Marriotts near the convention centre yesterday and no luck. I'll keep the Mc-descaler in mind and continue searching round here. Grateful for your efforts, and hope the wife had a good visit!

Hogfire

[cannonfodder]

PM me you home mailing address and I will set you up.

Glad you are doing better.

[Hogfire]

Finally, success!

Just a quick recap of my descaling dilemma. Thickly scaled element and boiler walls as per previous photos just would not come clean using domestic products. I tried Clean Caf numerous times in one week, and pure citric acid, with almost no change in the build up.

Cannonfodder was kind enough to send me some delimer for commercial equipment, and it removed all scale in just a 30 minute session! Powerful stuff for sure, so I completely stripped the machine down for a thorough rinsing, and after reassembly, all the seals and gaskets are just fine, and she's operating like a well-oiled machine, heating up quickly, and pumping out the goods like nobody's business!

A great big thank you goes out to Dave in Ohio! ! ! !


A no longer stressed out element



Smooth, clean boiler walls



Hogfire

[cannonfodder]

Glad to see you are feeling better.

Once it is clean, use about ¼ of a pack every 6 months to keep it nice and clean. I leave my machine assembled and just dissolve some of the powder in a bit of water, dump it in and top off the boiler. Heat it and let it rest for a half hour and drain.

[RCMann]

Glad to see you are feeling better.

Once it is clean, use about ¼ of a pack every 6 months to keep it nice and clean. I leave my machine assembled and just dissolve some of the powder in a bit of water, dump it in and top off the boiler. Heat it and let it rest for a half hour and drain.

So what is this infamous McSubstance, and how can the rest of us plebeians get some, or at least a generic McSubstitute?

I happened upon this thread as I prepare to clean my Cremina after a complete teardown/rebuild about 9-10 months ago. At the time there was zero scale, and I don't see any now, even though I use tap water in the machine.

But I figured I better clean it now while the deposits may be very small than wait until they get bigger...Rod

[mogogear]

So what is this infamous McSubstance, and how can the rest of us plebeians get some, or at least a generic McSubstitute?

I happened upon this thread as I prepare to clean my Cremina after a complete teardown/rebuild about 9-10 months ago. At the time there was zero scale, and I don't see any now, even though I use tap water in the machine.

But I figured I better clean it now while the deposits may be very small than wait until they get bigger...Rod

FWIW:

I am not sure what the brand is on the MaCdonald spec'd cleaner that Hogfire uses but pure citric acid from a homebrew store is very powerful stuff for someone such as yourself with an professed "fairly clean machine". Plus you get the benefit that it is not actually a chemical cleaner. Residue may give a helpful tart taste but not "sit" you down or worse.. Plus it is very affordable. I had some "very scaled" machines I bought out of the St Paul MN. area- hard scale build up- The citric acid did the trick - no problems.

[RCMann]

Thanks Mo-

I have citric acid but was looking for something a bit more thorough. I tried using citric acid when I first got the machine and the scale was heavy, and it didn't seem to do anything.

I ended up using lime/rust/scale remover which worked ok, but that was when the machine was disassembled and I could be sure to rinse it all out.

I'll probably use the citric acid anyway, maybe it'll work ok on light deposits...Rod

[cannonfodder]

It is made by Kay Chemical. It is a commercial delimer, the ambiguous contents only read 'proprietary acidic salts'. If you happen to know someone that works at that golden arch food place, you could see if they can pick up a case. It is cheap and works wonderfully, or contact Kay Chemical and see if they make a non branded product that is available to the public.

[Genesis]

If you have the machine TAKEN APART you can get some "phOspho-Ric" at the local Home Depot.

This is a commercial etchant, rust remover and paint prep. It contains phosphoric acid.

It WILL take all the lime off and is (reasonably) safe around metals and seals. Do not use it "raw" (undiluted) and do not spill it on you. You also don't want to drink it!

Again - don't even THINK about using this stuff if you have to suck it into a boiler. It will foam bigtime while its working, and if you don't get it all out you'll be most unhappy (possibly "poisoned" unhappy.) It can also attack brass (de-zincifying it) if you leave it in there too long.

"Commercial grade" products like this need to be used judiciously by people who are cautious and know what they're doing, or you can have VERY bad results. Brass contains zinc, and zinc is attacked by basically all acids to one degree or another, so there IS a potential issue with structural damage to boilers and fittings with any decalcification regime.