Vivace Dolce: What am I doing wrong? (or what am I missing?)

[Richard]

Greetings. I have been reading, i.e., lurking here for some months but have been largely silent, partially from having neither abundant time or knowledge to support meaningful contribution to discussions here, and partially to gauge the lay of the land, so to speak, before jumping uninformed into ongoing discussions.

Briefly, by way of background, I have been brewing and enjoying fine coffees for decades, experimenting and learning about the art of espresso for the past 15 or so years across a wide procession of coffees across a full gamut of styles and sources. A number of months ago I became thoroughly enamored of George Howell's Terroir coffees and have succumbed to the charms of his SO espresso coffees. I have had a current-version Cimbali M21 "Junior" espresso machine for about a year, preceded by several lesser machines across 15 or so years.

Finally to the subject that prompts this post and request for help. After reading high praise for the coffees, I ordered a pound each of Vivace's two espresso blends: Dolce and Vita. They were roasted last Friday, 5/18, and arrived yesterday, 5/24. My only previous source of information about these coffees was what I have read in various online sources, including HB.

Dear Lord, what a shock. To say the Dolce eludes me is an understatement. Far from sweetness, as the very name Dolce states, I am unable to achieve anything drinkable. And the smell of it! As they say these years, Eww! Across an intentionally wide range of temperatures (from far too cool to far too hot, purposefully pushing the envelope), doses, and grinds (coming out of a Mazzer Mini Electronic) there remains a pervasive resinous odor unlike anything I associate with coffee; the spent puck is almost evergreen-like in aroma, and it carries into the cup. Too cool and it's sour, as expected; too hot and it's bitter, as expected; but always that wet, cardboardish, resinous stench and aroma.

So to dispense with the wandering rhetoric, can anyone offer suggestions as to appropriate ways to "dial in" and learn to pull shots with these coffees? I will be most appreciative of any and all helpful suggestions.

Please don't interpret this ramble as especially critical of Vivace's coffees; it's more a commentary on my ability to pull shots and appreciate it. De gustibus non est disputandum.

(I have yet to try the Vita.)

[Ken Fox]

Greetings. I have been reading, i.e., lurking here for some months but have been largely silent, partially from having neither abundant time or knowledge to support meaningful contribution to discussions here, and partially to gauge the lay of the land, so to speak, before jumping uninformed into ongoing discussions.

Briefly, by way of background, I have been brewing and enjoying fine coffees for decades, experimenting and learning about the art of espresso for the past 15 or so years across a wide procession of coffees across a full gamut of styles and sources. A number of months ago I became thoroughly enamored of George Howell's Terroir coffees and have succumbed to the charms of his SO espresso coffees. I have had a current-version Cimbali M21 "Junior" espresso machine for about a year, preceded by several lesser machines across 15 or so years.

Finally to the subject that prompts this post and request for help. After reading high praise for the coffees, I ordered a pound each of Vivace's two espresso blends: Dolce and Vita. They were roasted last Friday, 5/18, and arrived yesterday, 5/24. My only previous source of information about these coffees was what I have read in various online sources, including HB.

Dear Lord, what a shock. To say the Dolce eludes me is an understatement. Far from sweetness, as the very name Dolce states, I am unable to achieve anything drinkable. And the smell of it! As they say these years, Eww! Across an intentionally wide range of temperatures (from far too cool to far too hot, purposefully pushing the envelope), doses, and grinds (coming out of a Mazzer Mini Electronic) there remains a pervasive resinous odor unlike anything I associate with coffee; the spent puck is almost evergreen-like in aroma, and it carries into the cup. Too cool and it's sour, as expected; too hot and it's bitter, as expected; but always that wet, cardboardish, resinous stench and aroma.

So to dispense with the wandering rhetoric, can anyone offer suggestions as to appropriate ways to "dial in" and learn to pull shots with these coffees? I will be most appreciative of any and all helpful suggestions.

Please don't interpret this ramble as especially critical of Vivace's coffees; it's more a commentary on my ability to pull shots and appreciate it. De gustibus non est disputandum.

(I have yet to try the Vita.)

Don't discount the possibility that they may have received a bad bag of one of the constituent coffees, and that the coffee you received is not salvageable. About 2 years ago I purchased some green blend from a highly respected roaster, roasted up several pounds, and sent samples out to several friends. I started getting back email commentary to the effect of, "is this a test?" and "Peeeeeyeeeewwwww!"

It turned out that a bad bag of beans had gotten into the blend and had ruined it. I sent some of the green back to the roaster and they concurred that there was something bad in there and ended up replacing the order.

I am not a fan of Vivace's coffees, although I have on occasion visited their cafes in Seattle. I would say that your reaction to the coffee you have received, in light of your experience level, indicates either a bad batch or a personal dislike of the blends.

You cannot "dial in" coffee that is bad, or that you don't like. I have tried to do this many times and have never succeeded.

kne

[TRH]

Richard,

I too had a similar experience with Dolce a while back. I tried adjusting my Brewtus to different temps and experimented with different dose sizes and baskets. To my taste buds, nothing produced a shot that I really enjoyed.

I later purchased some green Monsooned Malabar and experimented with it in some home roast blends. I liked the blends best with 0% Malabr!

I did try the Vivace decaf at the same time and thought it was very good.

[Ken Fox]

Richard,

I too had a similar experience with Dolce a while back. I tried adjusting my Brewtus to different temps and experimented with different dose sizes and baskets. To my taste buds, nothing produced a shot that I really enjoyed.

I later purchased some green Monsooned Malabar and experimented with it in some home roast blends. I liked the blends best with 0% Malabr!

I did try the Vivace decaf at the same time and thought it was very good.

I don't like MM either, which may go a long way towards explaining why I don't like the Vivace blends.

ken

[cafeIKE]

When they pull a shot at Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica, they pack the filter to the brim and about 30ml of brown black goop consititutes a double.

The missus didn't like her latte either.

WOFTAM

[Fullsack]

You might try a finer grind. Dan, Jim, Abe, one of the "elders," (I did a search and couldn't find the post), mentioned that Dolce beans are rubbery and need finer grinding than most other blends.

['Q']

Interesting post.

For the past 6 months or so I've ordered from Espesso Vivace probably at least once a month. I personally prefer the Vita blend over the Dolce, but have had good results from both. The last order I made on 5/3, shipped 5/4, was for some Vita and some Decaf. When I started pulling shots from it a couple days after it arrived I could not get anything good out of it no matter what I did. It was unusual and I tried everything, thinking it was something with me or my machine, to fix it. As part of the process of elimination, I went to the local Pete's and got a 1/4lb of some of their dark, oily beans to try and had better results from that. Finally I sent them an email asking if they had received complaints about that batch because I had such poor results from it. I didn't get an email response from them but yesterday a box showed up in the mail containing a complete replacement. Now, I was not expecting a new shipment and was pleasantly surprised by it. However, I must say that from the few shots I pulled last night and this morning, this batch is somewhat better but still not on par from past experience. I usually look forward to the first whaft of aroma from a newly opened bag of Vita blend, but these most recent bags have not had that very pleasing sweet smell. I'm thinking they got some bad beans.

Again, I applaud their effort to "make it right" by sending a replacement order, I did not expect it when sending the email.

I guess my results could also still be me and/or something with my equipment too... but, like you said, the aroma even seems off.

[Richard]

You might try a finer grind. Dan, Jim, Abe, one of the "elders," (I did a search and couldn't find the post), mentioned that Dolce beans are rubbery and need finer grinding than most other blends.

Rubbery seems a good description not only of the bean consistency but, come to think of it, of the flavor, too.

Yes, it does require a finer grind than anything I've previously used. Also, its weight per given volume is less than that to which I'm accustomed. A Cimbali double basket will not accommodate more than about 15 grams of Dolce whereas I usually dose 16 or even 17 grams of other coffees; 17 grams of Dolce and the portafilter can't be locked into place.

[Richard]

Don't discount the possibility that they may have received a bad bag of one of the constituent coffees . . . your reaction to the coffee you have received, in light of your experience level, indicates either a bad batch or a personal dislike of the blends.

One thing is clear: I quickly developed a personal dislike for what was in my mouth.

You cannot "dial in" coffee that is bad, or that you don't like. I have tried to do this many times and have never succeeded.

I am reminded of a sign once seen on the wall in a voice teacher's studio: Never, ever, try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. So I likely shan't be annoying that particular coffee any further.

[Beavis]

Great...I got hooked by the chocolaty comments on both of their blends and just ordered TUESDAY. It will be hard to have unbiased taste buds when it gets here.
Seems many folks have had bad results. I hope mine are better.

[SWR]

I used to buy Vita on a regular basis and really liked it, but was reluctant to try Dolce due to its finicky reputation. I'm very glad I finally did, though, as it's now my favorite blend. I've tried all the most popular blends mentioned on this forum and coffeegeek, including Rocket Coffee's new Reserve Espresso. Needless to say, I'm back again buying Dolce.

Here's my setup and process for it:

Machine: Anita
Basket: "Synesso" 18g
Grinder: Mini-E
Grind: Very fine (I mean fine)
Temp: Unknown, never measured, but I brew on the higher side of temps based on what I've read about Vivace's blends (basically I stop the water dance the second it changes to a steady stream, whereas I keep it going a couple seconds longer for other blends that don't like high temps)
Dose: ~19g (used to measure, don't anymore)
Time: ~35sec (again, used to measure, don't anymore)
Volume: ~1.5oz or slightly more

The result is a rich, deeply sweet, crema-laden bit of heaven with a heavy mouthfeel. If done correctly (which I don't hit every time), it is very chocolately sweet with a long, lingering chocolate aftertaste.

Key point to make here is I'm getting this as well with a new Dolce batch just roasted on Monday and arrived yesterday. Still not fully done de-gassing, and already pulling some very yummy shots.

I hope this gives some folks reason to keep trying with Vivace blends. Again, taste is relative, but to mine, Vivace is still producing a winner.

[Richard]

. . . Grind: Very fine (I mean fine) . . . Dose: ~19g (used to measure, don't anymore)
Time: ~35sec (again, used to measure, don't anymore)
Volume: ~1.5oz or slightly more

Thank you for the specificity. What you just described is a ristretto, and that's food for further experimentation here. Given the ca. 15-gram dosage in a Cimbali double basket, I need to shoot for perhaps 1-oz. pulls in 20 or so seconds and see what that's like.

[SWR]

Yes, Vivace is blended optimally for a triple ristretto. That's what they pull in their shops, and that's where the deep sweetness comes from. I've tried true triple ristrettos with the 21g LM triple basket, but I prefer the 18g basket to it. I read once that Malachi recommended Dolce as a 21g basket downdosed 19g ristretto, but I prefer an 18-19g dose in the 18g basket, and it's treated me very well so far. Get that syrupy, gloppy ristretto pull, and you'll like the result.

[edwa]

I offer this as more of a question of a possibility than a statement of fact. I have occassionally used Caffe Luxxe's beans in the past and they are reputed to be rebadged Vivace. The last time I had their Testarosa blend, which is described similarly as the Dolce is, I found that it was better starting on day 7 after roasting. Odd, no? But previous to this no matter how fine my Mazzer ground, short of choking, I got that shook-up-soda-foam. After this longer rest not only did the Crema improve but so did the taste. Today, I received my first purchase of a 1/2 lb of Dolce and Vita. I'll post on how these fare after they rest a few more days. I have my concerns based on a number of posts reporting how finicky Dolce can be, but, "nothing ventured nothing gained". etc. etc. etc.

[Beavis]

Agree, Edwa. Maybe I'll pull a miracle shot! Never know till you try. Besides, we are all looking for what we like even though many of us get there by different paths.

[Richard]

Dose: ~19g (used to measure, don't anymore)
Time: ~35sec (again, used to measure, don't anymore)
Volume: ~1.5oz or slightly more

This is spot-on advice and I thank you again for it.

I rummaged around and found a basket of about 21g capacity, so deep it will fit only in a bottomless portafilter on the La Cimbali. Dosed at 19-20g, a 1.0-1.5oz ristretto in about 30 seconds, the resulting shot was wholly different than what I was pulling a couple of days ago, and the aroma in the cup was essentially that of the ground coffee. Interestingly, the resinous, rubbery stench of the spent puck that I was experiencing earlier was thankfully absent, too.

As to whether I appreciate the style of the Dolce ristretto, the jury is still out, but I believe I'm on the right track with how to handle the coffee.

[SWR]

I'm glad that's working out better for you, Richard. Keep experimenting with it, and hopefully the shots will keep improving. Just gotta find the sweet spot for it. I guess that's why it's notorious for being finicky. Once you find it, though, it's easy to replicate it.

[Ken Fox]

Interestingly, the resinous, rubbery stench of the spent puck that I was experiencing earlier was thankfully absent, too.

As to whether I appreciate the style of the Dolce ristretto, the jury is still out, but I believe I'm on the right track with how to handle the coffee.

Rubbery, in espresso, usually comes from Robusta, which is also present in the Vivace blends.

I suggest you try a bunch of other coffees, especially single origins, before you conclude that the effort you need to put into pulling a good shot with Vivace's blends is worth the effort.

I have a number of single origins, and other blends, that I have used over time which are not particularly finnicky and which to my taste provide more pleasure than anything I've ever been served at a Vivace cafe.

I do still go there when I pass through Seattle, it seems like it is necessary for some reason, but I don't feel any obligation to drink their coffee elsewhere.

ken

[Richard]

Rubbery, in espresso, usually comes from Robusta, which is also present in the Vivace blends.

I believe these are the first robusta-containing blends I have ever tried. They may be the last.

I suggest you try a bunch of other coffees, especially single origins, before you conclude that the effort you need to put into pulling a good shot with Vivace's blends is worth the effort.

Oh, I regularly drink and enjoy single origin coffees across a variety of styles. These Vivace blends fall, for me, into the category of experiment. I offloaded that STUFF out of the grinder after dinner this evening and gratefully turned back to George Howell's Datera northern Italian roast, one of my regulars.

Thanks for your perspective, Ken. It's not at all unlike my own on this subject.

[edwa]

I opened my bag of Vita this morning and all I can say is 4 days from roast is not enough rest. Foam city and a wicked cone. Now I'm upriver without a paddle as I finished the last of the Redline this morning for my first shot.