High End Conical Burr Grinder for Home Use

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
KonaViewCoffee
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#1: Post by KonaViewCoffee »

Aloha-
Some Background:
I am a coffee farmer in Hawaii. I have developed a 100% Kona single origin espresso (called "Sweet Waves") that I am supplying to Daylight Mind Coffee Company here in Kona on the Big Island of Hawaii. I spent 6 months working on 3 different roasts of the same bean (ours) that offer very different flavor profiles to build complexity in the cup. I worked with "Dr. Coffee" at Daylight Mind (Shawn Steiman) who cupped the various roasts and suggested a ratio that worked best. The program has been up and running about 2 months now. We roast on a 6 kilo Giesen drum roaster using their software as well as Cropster. So far we have been able to keep the product very much on target and it has been well received.

The Setup: Daylight Mind has a La Marzocco Strada 2 Group Manual Paddle with a brand new Mazzer Kony Electronic grinder that they brought in for Sweet Waves. We considered getting a Mahkonig K30 but stuck with the Kony. They have a Kony and a Mazzer Major and prefer the Kony for espresso taste as well as ease of use - their 3rd world blend espresso is also ground on a Kony.

The Problem: I have a 2 year old Izzo Duetto 2 with a 3 year old Baratza Vario - on its second set of burrs. I usually use a Strada Triple portafilter basket with 20 grams of coffee extracted at 200 degrees. I weigh the beans and then grind them for each shot I pull. While I can somewhat approach the fancy La Marzocco/Kony setup I always come up short. By short I mean that my shots err on the side of citrus notes - (not a good thing as far as I am concerned with espresso) rather than the fruit forward that is the basis of Sweet Waves. On the other end - the chocolate notes are less pronounced. As a cappuccino it evens out but as a straight espresso it is lacking. I can always go downtown to test results of tweeking on the 15K setup but I would really like to get closer at home for testing and tasting improvements.

The Solution? I don't have the budget to upgrade both my espresso machine and a grinder for my home. So the staring point would seem to be the grinder. I am leaning towards conical burr grinders at this point because several baristas that I have talked to prefer the taste that comes out of a conical grinder for espresso. I also only want doserless given how I use the grinder. I did have the Kony up here for a few days before we put it at the bar downtown and it seemed to make a difference over my Vario - but I did not have enough time to really get to know it and compare it. At this point I am considering a Kony Electronic but am also considering a Mahlkonig EK43. I am not in love with ergonomics of the EK43 - apparently this grinder is primarily meant to grind into a bag (who does that with espresso anyway?) - but if they had something to hold the portafilter it would make better sense to me. Also the Ceado E92 is of interest. I realize that I may have to change the way I operate - these more commercial size grinders may not do so well with only a measured amount of beans in the hopper. This would be a bit of a hassle - I store unused beans in an Airscape and I really like just using a set amount of beans at a time. I hate to waste coffee - especially my own - but retention and clearing out unground beans is OK if it can get me closer to a shot that comes closer to what I need. Any suggestions are welcomed!

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Balthazar_B
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#2: Post by Balthazar_B »

Have you considered an HG One grinder? http://hg-one.com/the-hg-one-grinder/

Many consider it the optimal big conical grinder for single dosing, in terms of both quality as well as minimal waste. Yes, it's manual, but unless you're pulling more than a dozen shots a day, it may be just what you're looking for.
- John

LMWDP # 577

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#3: Post by EspressoForge »

I like my HG-One and would agree, if it's just for your home and you're not worried about making lots of shots for people (who you wouldn't ask to grind their own shot...some people think it's fun), then it's great.

But you may try some other baskets than your Strada triple. I never got great results out of triple baskets, mostly double and 18g baskets in the middle, or some single baskets can be great. I would suggest that just because they are using a strada triple at the coffee shop, may not be the best for you at home. Just my 2 cents.

BTW cool project with a single origin blend from different roast levels (melange I believe it's called). One of my best friends is a farmer in PNG and looking for a good place to open his coffee shop in the main city. Right now he uses a Super Jolly and Caravel at home, but I'm not sure what he'll go with at the shop when it opens. Good luck to you!

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[creative nickname]
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#4: Post by [creative nickname] »

Since you say your heart is set on large conical burrs and you want to single dose, I'll agree that the HG-one would be pretty ideal for you. The Compak k10-PB (or its successor models) is also well-loved on these forums because it is relatively more friendly to single-dosing than many other commercial grinders.
LMWDP #435

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boar_d_laze
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#5: Post by boar_d_laze »

The E92 isn't made to single dose. You have to jump through quite a few hoops to make it do that well. Dave C modded one to work as a single doser, and described it in a review he wrote for bella barista.

As a hopper-fed on demand grinder, which is what Ceado intended the E92 to be, it's great. I've been using one for a little more than a year. I disagree with Dave's conclusions regarding how much coffee it's necessary to purge in order to keep the flow tasting fresh. I purge ~12g in the morning if the first shot I'm going to pull is for a milk drink. Otherwise a full double shot's worth, 18.5g. In addition, I'll purge ~6g anytime the grinder's been left to idle more than an hour. If the grinder idles longer than 24 hours, I'll purge a double-double.

My doser timer's single shot button is programmed for 1.6sec, and the double shot button is programmed for 5.0 sec, so you can see that dosing -- including dosing the purges -- is very easy.

Since you're grinding your own beans, I don't imagine that the waste from purging will mean much to you as an expense.

Grinders with mechanical dosers are a little easier to use for single dosing, plus you aren't wasting a bunch of very expensive electronics. However, they aren't being offered by very many manufacturers, and many of the models in production aren't for sale in the US. The Compak K10 PB is very popular in the H-B community for single dosing; although I'm not a single doser, I think the recommendation was a good one.

While the HG One is a great grinder, it doesn't make sense for your purposes.

If you're really worried about retention, there are several big flats which would work for you -- even used on-demand, big flat retention is too slight to mean much. While they don't do quite as well with coffee's high notes, they're still outstanding grinders. There's no grinder which is the best for everyone. You're going to have to make some decisions.

In my opinion -- and it's only an opinion -- the EK43 is not only a pain in the ass but overrated in the cup. If I were willing to spend that kind of money on a big flat, it would be on the Anfim Super Caimano Barista (which, by the way, has a great mechanical doser). I hear the Nuova Simonelli Mythos is better than the Anfim, but as it's priced here in the US, it's a great deal more expensive than the Anfim and EK43 and probably too expensive.

If you do decide to go with an on demand big flat, look at the Ceado E37s and Mahlkonig K30 Vario WBC. Dave's review of the E37s is on the money, as far as I'm concerned.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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Compass Coffee
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#6: Post by Compass Coffee »

boar_d_laze wrote:While the HG One is a great grinder, it doesn't make sense for your purposes.
Rich
Why not? As a home barista AND coffee professional roaster with busy coffee bars I believe it could suite his purposes extremely well. There's no intent of using it for any type of volume production but rather low volume dual purpose: testing shots of roasts that he sells and home use. The only negative might be it would likely be better of slightly better grind quality than the Kony used at Daylight Mind, though the Strada would be capable of a slightly better shot than his Duetto.
Mike McGinness

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boar_d_laze
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#7: Post by boar_d_laze »

Compass Coffee wrote:Why not?
Why not indeed? I misread his post. When I saw the word "cupping," I assumed heavy use. If he's only pulling half a dozen shots a day, including cupping days, then it's only a half dozen times he has to weigh out each shot, dribble water onto the beans, turn the crank, dose the pf from a cup, and brush everything out. Easy peasy.
KonaViewCoffee wrote:The Problem: I have a 2 year old Izzo Duetto 2 with a 3 year old Baratza Vario - on its second set of burrs. I usually use a Strada Triple portafilter basket with 20 grams of coffee extracted at 200 degrees. I weigh the beans and then grind them for each shot I pull. While I can somewhat approach the fancy La Marzocco/Kony setup I always come up short. By short I mean that my shots err on the side of citrus notes - (not a good thing as far as I am concerned with espresso) rather than the fruit forward that is the basis of Sweet Waves. On the other end - the chocolate notes are less pronounced. As a cappuccino it evens out but as a straight espresso it is lacking. I can always go downtown to test results of tweeking on the 15K setup but I would really like to get closer at home for testing and tasting improvements.
A lot of your problem might come from a too-large basket and/or temping rather than grinder itself. Compared to a big conic, you'd expect a Vario to be relatively muted at the top and heavy at the bottom. Instead of the grinder's profile, it sounds like your coffee is under extracted.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

KonaViewCoffee (original poster)
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#8: Post by KonaViewCoffee (original poster) »

Thanks for all of the suggestions - you have given me a lot to ponder! For home use I only do a few espresso shots per day - more when we are experimenting with changes. We do pour overs more often but the Vario is fine for that. I will consider all of the recommendations given. I will also rethink single dosing if I end up going with a large conical. I have tried various baskets and amounts but will look into that as well. Even though I stated that I was only interested in conicals I also will consider large flat burr setups as well. Thanks for your tips!

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#9: Post by EspressoForge »

KonaViewCoffee wrote:Thanks for all of the suggestions - you have given me a lot to ponder! For home use I only do a few espresso shots per day - more when we are experimenting with changes. We do pour overs more often but the Vario is fine for that. I will consider all of the recommendations given. I will also rethink single dosing if I end up going with a large conical. I have tried various baskets and amounts but will look into that as well. Even though I stated that I was only interested in conicals I also will consider large flat burr setups as well. Thanks for your tips!
If I were in your position, I would try to stick to something as close to the Kony as possible. Mostly because you seemed to like it a lot from the coffee shop, and also because you would know how any new coffees should taste (as far as grinder profile will affect shots) when developing new blends, or with the changing seasons.

But I do think that most conicals should be at least similar, I would just rule out flat burrs in general, although it's all preference, this is mostly because of the Kony factor.
boar_d_laze wrote:Since you're grinding your own beans, I don't imagine that the waste from purging will mean much to you as an expense.
I can imagine this is more out of mental anguish than actual expense. It's a lot of work to grow and process coffee, not to mention he's also doing the roasting and blending! Very ambitious if you ask me and I could see how every bean may be precious to him. It reminds me of a video I saw of Mr. Illy who is discussing how every bean must be perfect for a shot, because with around 50 beans in an Italian (double I guess?), if even one is defective, the shot will likely be defective too.

Excuse me while I go look at farmland in Hawaii again...

mathof
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#10: Post by mathof »

KonaViewCoffee wrote:Aloha-
Some Background:
I am a coffee farmer in Hawaii. I have developed a 100% Kona single origin espresso (called "Sweet Waves") that I am supplying to Daylight Mind Coffee Company here in Kona on the Big Island of Hawaii. I spent 6 months working on 3 different roasts of the same bean (ours) that offer very different flavor profiles to build complexity in the cup. I worked with "Dr. Coffee" at Daylight Mind (Shawn Steiman) who cupped the various roasts and suggested a ratio that worked best.
Just to say that I was in Kona last month and had the Sweet Waves espresso a couple of times at Daylight Mind. It really is wonderful.

Matt

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