Vibiemme PID double boiler

[stefano65]

Since there is a lot of interest on the VBM double boiler with the PID control here some info :
The basic components are the same as the VBM Domobar Super

- Brew Boiler 1414 ml 100x180 diameter with 3 mm thickness rather then 2,5mm like most of the other boiler
( this avoid the need of a external thermo protection to keep temp stability)

- Steam Boiler 905x180mm thickness 2,5

- Tubing to and from the brew boiler 12mm ( same size as commercial machines)

- PID and electronics made by Gicar and custom made display for VBM



- Heating Elements
For European Market
Steam boiler 1200w
800w
for US market
Steam 1000w
Brew 600w
the Heating Element are custom made for VBM shorter then standard to minimize the caloric dispersion
in planned also a beef up version with a total amperage of 18A for the future

Although VBM has already some testing unit out in the field of Europe
The first units are going to be sold in europe by the middle of january
for the US we are expecting them by March or so

further details such a precise delivery time and pricing will be release by the importer (Jim at 1st-line) when the time will allow and from us US distributors
Sincerely
Stefano Cremonesi

[zin1953]

Thanks, Stefano, for the updated info . . . much appreciated!

[milnerb1]

This sounds like it might be a perfect unit to upgrade from my 5 year old Isomac Tea.

Finally, a unit that seems to have everything I've been wanting including excellent components and build quality, dual boiler, rotary pump, full swivel steam arms, good quality steam/water VALVES, pid, and 58MM portafilter size.

Very exciting!

[Charlie Chan]

Anyone want to guess the price of this machine? How about you Mr. Kehn? You seemed to know the price of the GS3 before anyone else

[HB]

Anyone want to guess the price of this machine? How about you Mr. Kehn?

I have no insider knowledge, but based on the market competitors (e.g., Expobar Brewtus $1699, La Spaziale Vivalid Mini $1895) and the Vibiemme Domobar Super price ($1615 on sale), I would guess around $2000 retail with a few "early adopter" units selling for approximately the same price as the Vivaldi II.

[Gregg K]

Thanks.

I suppose someone is going to step in where the GS/3 was going to fill a need. If they're smart, they will.

What I'd like to see is the option to not plumb. And steam valves that aren't rotary.

However, those all require magnitudes of mechanical and electronic complexity.

Nice machine.

[zin1953]

According to Jim at 1st-line, all three machines will be manual (levetta) machines -- no push-button semi's or volumetric auto's.

[jesawdy]

What I'd like to see is the option to not plumb.

Jim at 1st-Line said that both a vibe pourover and rotary plumb model are slated (link).

There will be three Vibiemme Domobar Super models slated for 2008...

A) Vibe pump PID-controlled dual boiler tank model Vibiemme now slated for early spring introduction
B) Rotary vane pump heat exchange boiler with direct water connect Vibiemme now slated for early spring introduction
C) Rotary vane pump PID-controlled dual boiler with direct water connect Vibiemme slated for the latter part of 2008

And steam valves that aren't rotary.

I agree that lever style steam valves would be pretty trick.

[cafeIKE]

I agree that lever style steam valves would be pretty trick.

NOT!

[HB]

NOT!

Why not? You don't like the full on/full off? I know it's a matter of preference, but I liked the Elektra A3's toggle steam control:

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-495625159680580491[/gvideo]

I also liked the Nuova Simonelli Aurelia's up/down steam toggle, though it would take a bit getting used to if you're a long-time knob turner. According to a repair technician I spoke with, the toggle type steam valves last longer.

[cafeIKE]

Why not?

Dorky appearance?

According to a repair technician I spoke with, the toggle type steam valves last longer.

When it comes to anything espresso, don't believe everything you hear

[Psyd]

Why not? You don't like the full on/full off? I know it's a matter of preference

I dunno if I could steam three or four ounces of milk with a lever, but I'm able to do it from the fourteen liter boiler on the Astoria with a rotary knob.

[HB]

Dorky appearance?

I would have to see them in place to judge. They looked good on the Isomac Mondiale, but that espresso machine was already "out there" looks-wise. In terms of usability, I loved the toggle steam levers on the Elektra A3.

When it comes to anything espresso, don't believe everything you hear

Understood. The theory goes that the compression type seals for steam knobs are more easily abused than the spring loaded toggles. Of course we all know that most commercial steam knobs use closure springs, so you can't overtighten and damage the seals.

[cannonfodder]

I like the lever valves on my Elektra. A year of use and no problems. I do not want to armchair engineer, but a crisper steam and water valve on the Domobar Super would be nice. I also really like the ability to gently feather in steam. If I want to steam 2 ounces of milk, I can, if I want to steam a pint I can.

Keep in mind that most prices are going up after the first of the year, if they have not already. I have seen $500 increases already and they will continue to increase as the cost of materials increase and the dollars value drops. It would not surprise me to see it priced in the $2500 range.

[stefano65]

By the middle or late January we will see the first "test unit" here in the US
then we will do the on hand experience
yes the price should be around the $ 2000 unless the euro goes back in the climber mode

[zin1953]

According to Jim, all three models will be "leveta" style manuals.

[Gregg K]

What are the benefits and limitations of the lever actuator?

I would guess that the levetta style gives more immediate user control. But less accurate repeatability, if that's worth anything. AND less electronics.

The GS/3 allowed me to aim my sights at a machine that I knew would be the ultimate, without doing any research. So suddenly I find myself scrambling to study everything in the coffee forums that I have missed over the last few years.

Even since posting in this thread, I have learned a few things, and have even more questions.

Now I'm beginning to rethink the plumb option. Partly because I will have a permanent home, and see the need to refill as a fairly major detraction. There must be some good reasons for a water reservoir, or LM wouldn't have included one in their machine. But I now wonder what the reason is, aside from customers who don't want to run a line to their machine, or those who want to cater.

[HB]

What are the benefits and limitations of the lever actuator?

It isn't just a fancy lever that pushes a pump switch, it's part of the E61 design. Models without the lever don't have expansion chambers as described in the patent. Whether it matters is another question, but the effect on the brew pressure profile can be measured (see Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor for details).

But I now wonder what the reason is, aside from customers who don't want to run a line to their machine, or those who want to cater.

When the GS/3 was introduced at the Seattle SCAA conference, I asked Kent Bakke this very question. He said a plumb-in requirement is a significant barrier to selling the GS/3 to clientele who've already invested thousands in marble/granite countertops and expensive Italian tile backsplashes. I argued someone who was serious enough about espresso to invest in the GS/3 wouldn't quibble about a small hole hidden under it, but he assured me the "spousal factor" would kill most sales. Judging from what I've read from those on the waiting list the last couple years, I think that he was right.

[Marshall]

Now I'm beginning to rethink the plumb option. Partly because I will have a permanent home, and see the need to refill as a fairly major detraction. There must be some good reasons for a water reservoir, or LM wouldn't have included one in their machine. But I now wonder what the reason is, aside from customers who don't want to run a line to their machine, or those who want to cater.

As Dan notes, the granite and spousal rejection factor is a major issue (I got an earful from mine). A second issue, for the majority of owners whose tap water is less than ideal, is water treatment. If your municipal water is as foul tasting and calcified as ours, cheap, in-line filtration systems may not give satisfactory results. Professional R/O and re-mineralization systems can cost $1,000 or more and take up quite a bit of under-counter space. So, an espresso machine with a reservoir allows us to simply use the bottled drinking water from our home dispenser. I refill the Zaffiro tank twice a week.

[Gregg K]

Thank you so much you guys.

Good replies. There's a lot more going on here than first meets the eyes.

I'm having a very difficult time right now. This is a good diversion. I decided to leave the beautiful house I'm in, and move onto a piece of land I just bought. I'm typing this from an empty house with my computer at the last internet connection I'll know, until I go downtown to the cybercafe. And it's cold, and I still don't have a water tank, speaking of reservoirs. And it's because I still don't have my generator. Phew. The things we take for granted. Like water under pressure.

So I'll be going over more of these threads. I love this stuff. I've always had a thing about good coffee. And mechanical engineering.

There's a lot to learn.