Vetrano vs. Bricoletta vs. ??

[anim57]

Hello -

I've been lurking around HB for several months. I've found the reviews, how-to articles and forums EXTREMELY helpful as I've tried to educate myself on the art of great espresso. I'm now zeroing in on the all-important purchase of a machine. I've been using a Starbuck's Barista machine for about five years, and I'm ready - - overdue, really - - for the next level. As for technique, I'm totally untrained. I just love great coffee and feel really excited about getting some great equipment and learning how to use it proficiently. I love to cook - - I see it as an art form, really, and I want to bring the same attitude to making espresso. However, given my lack of experience, I've been kind of frozen (think "deer in headlights") when it comes to taking the plunge and investing in a really good machine.

So, the question is: which machine? My criteria have been: $1,500 (approx.) or less; a machine that will take me as far as I'm able to go (meaning that the machine is good enough so that a pro could consistently produce great shots, even if I never get to that level - - although I hope I do); a machine that can be plumbed (I'm sick of filling that damn tank!); and a machine that fits into my home and life (not too enormous, not too noisy, not too much of an energy hog).

I had been leaning toward the La Valentina Levetta or the Andreja Premium or the Grimac Mia. Then I read Chris Tacy's article on the Bricoletta and the idea of a rotary pump (quieter, more stable pressure) appealed to me. So I was headed in that direction. Then I saw this thread about the Vetrano, which seems to be an Andreja Premium with a rotary pump. So now I'm thinking this is the one to get (especially at Chris's intro price!)

I know you guys haven't had any hands-on experience with the Vetrano yet, but, anybody have any thoughts on these machines? And based on what I said above, does anybody think that my info (or my logic) is off in some way and that I should consider other options? Would it make any sense to wait for a dual-boiler machine meeting my criteria? I want to be able to put the machine on a timer and I understand that this causes problems with the Bricc. Is there an easy work-around?

Second question (for anybody who's still with my longwinded post) concerns a grinder. I was using a Starbuck's (Solis?) toy until it broke. Since then, I've been grinding my coffee at Trader Joe's. My dear mother (knowing my coffee interest) just sent me as a present a new Kitchen Aid burr grinder (from Williams-Sonoma), which I haven't opened. Would I be crazy to invest in a great machine and then use this grinder? I'm willing to spring for a Mazzer or similar. Will I seriously regret it if I don't?

Third (and final) question: What advice would you give somebody like me, who's never been on the business end of a La Marzocco or anything close, but who really wants to learn how to do it (at least somewhat) like the pros do it? Here in Portland, there is this "barista school" but it's $1,800 for their shortest (three day) class. Not gonna happen. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Anyway, in general, thanks to all of you for taking the time to put so much knowledge and experience on this site where people like me can access it. You guys rock!

Andy Nimelman

[Balthazar_B]

For your three questions:

1. Based on what you want, the Vetrano seems like a better match (since it can be put on a digital timer), and the intro price is a very good one if Chris still has machines available from his first batch. You should know that he also has a 30-day use-it-and-if-you-don't-like-it-return-it policy, so you get some protection even though it's a new machine that has no history (yet). Based on Chris' reputation and having talked about this machine with him at some length, I decided to order one sight unseen (I had previously been leaning towards a Bricc). If you want a Vetrano, you'd better call him right away, or you'll be waiting until February and paying more.

Alternatively, you can always wait for something newer and better, especially now that what was a gulf between $600 and $2000 machines is getting bridged, or perhaps an S1 might be to your liking (check out the gift specials in the Marketplace forum for some good deals), but I decided on the Vetrano instead of the S1 because the latter is not quite the machine I want for that price (the Vetrano takes up less counter space than the S1, by the way). Perhaps in a year or two the double-boiler machine that I really want at a sub-$2000 price point will appear on the market, but I don't want to wait that long when I can have a machine I'm pretty sure I'll be more than happy with in the meantime.

2. If the grinder you got as a gift is a ProLine, have a look at Mark Prince's short review at http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/firstlook/kitchenaidprolinegrinder. It looks like an OK device for $200, but if you can get a full refund for it, you might want to purchase a Macap ($375) or Mazzer ($420) instead, which are doubtless better (keep in mind that the first edition of a product is more prone to problems, and the KA is very new to the market) and worth the difference in cost (either one will probably outlive you). For a Vetrano/Bricc class machine, you'll profit from a VERY good grinder.

3. Practice makes perfect.

[skyryders90]

I want to be able to put the machine on a timer and I understand that this causes problems with the Bricc.

That's news to me, and I have a Bricc. You need a 20amp-capable timer, which isn't the easiest thing to find, but that's all. Oh, I also had to spend $10 to put a better vacuum breaker on it.

[mrosco]

I would call both companies and talk to them. I've talked to Jim at 1st-line.com (bricc) and I've talked to Mary at Chriscoffee (Vetrano). Both very knowledgable and friendly. I think in the end they are probably both great machines and it's going to come down to who you want to do business with. The Bricc at 1st-line is a great looking machine, completely different from anything on the market. The Vetrano is also a good looking machine. One has a larger boiler the other has some additional features. When you talk with them you can figure out which machine is the better match.
The review on HB about the Bricc is great and helpful but you have to remember Chris Tacy is a professional barista who only uses commercial equipment and compares the machine to commercial machines.
I'm by no means an expert and was in a similar situation as you. Based on everything I've read and all my research I would return the Kitchen Aid grinder and get a better grinder with the machine. There are some great deals with both companies right now thanks to HB!

[HB]

1. Would it make any sense to wait for a dual-boiler machine meeting my criteria? I like both designs (HX and dual boiler), though some really dislike the HX flushing routine. If you prize simplicity or have a penchant for finicky blends, a dual boiler is hard to beat for the espresso/cappuccino lover.
   
2. I'm willing to spring for a Mazzer or similar. Will I seriously regret it if I don't? Yes. Wise shoppers spend (proportionally) more money on the grinder than the espresso machine.
   
3. Barista school? Intelligentsia offers an intro class, if you happen to be in the Chicago area. Otherwise practice, practice, practice. If you're willing to shell out a couple grand for espresso equipment, burning through 5-10 pounds of coffee simply to learn isn't spendy. Rarely is a new owner dissatisfied after a week or two of practice, though you may wonder a year later why you didn't sink-shot what you made "back then." The bar keeps moving up.

[anim57]

Thanks to those who've weighed in!

I hadn't been thinking about the S1, but with the discounts offered (thanks John!) I could consider it. One issue for me, though: I don't have a dedicated 20-amp circuit where I want to put the machine, so I'd need to run it in "economy" mode. For a home user, is there a serious practical downside to the boilers not operating simultaneously? Also, if I did run this machine in 15-amp mode, could I run my grinder on the same circuit at the same time?

Andy

[skyryders90]

Thanks to those who've weighed in!

I hadn't been thinking about the S1, but with the discounts offered (thanks John!) I could consider it. One issue for me, though: I don't have a dedicated 20-amp circuit where I want to put the machine, so I'd need to run it in "economy" mode. For a home user, is there a serious practical downside to the boilers not operating simultaneously? Also, if I did run this machine in 15-amp mode, could I run my grinder on the same circuit at the same time?

Andy

I don't know about the S1, but I have a Bricc (which requires a 20 amp circuit). It is on a dedicated circuit along with my grinder (Cimbali Jr), a lamp, and a FloJet pump. They have, at times, ALL been doing their various things at the same time, and I've never had a problem. The light does dim a touch from time to time, but that's all.

[anim57]

That's exactly my situation - - I have a 20-amp circuit, but there are other plugs on the same circuit. Not sure if the S1 would trip the circuit with other stuff running. Good to hear the Bricc doesn't.

[HB]

Not sure if the S1 would trip the circuit with other stuff running.

The S1's ECONO mode forces the boilers to alternate with priority to the brew boiler so it can run on a 15A circuit. You can toggle between ECONO and regular 20A mode on the fly. In my experience, the 20A mode had no practical benefit in a home environment, though it might come in handy if you plan to cater small weddings.

[miKe mcKoffee]

If you want to wait a week or so my Bric' will be here so you could check out in person, across the river in Vancouver WA. (plumbed rotary lever model) However, if you're deciding between a Vetrano and a Bric' I'd go the Vetrano even though slightly higher price. So why did I get the Bric'. Super great deal on very slightly cosmetically boo-booed unit. And if going Vetrano, don't wait, when the 1st 30 are gone the price goes up and they're almost all gone. It's not a marketing ploy.

[anim57]

OK, now you guys have me thinking S1, which I actually think is a beautiful machine (reminds me of all the corner cafes in Paris <sigh>). And, since I'm not planning on catering any weddings in the near future the "econo" mode should work for me. I'll decide in the next day or so, but that's how I'm leaning.

Thanks everybody.

[miKe mcKoffee]

OK, now you guys have me thinking S1, which I actually think is a beautiful machine (reminds me of all the corner cafes in Paris <sigh>). And, since I'm not planning on catering any weddings in the near future the "econo" mode should work for me. I'll decide in the next day or so, but that's how I'm leaning.

Thanks everybody.

From the research I've done I highly doubt you'll regret an S1. Oh, and if you do cater a wedding they'll likely have a 20A circuit available. I had to rule it out of consideration, just too wide for limited counter space. Debi's gonna kill me when she see's how much bigger the Bric' is than Silvia as it is!

[Balthazar_B]

From the research I've done I highly doubt you'll regret an S1. Oh, and if you do cater a wedding they'll likely have a 20A circuit available. I had to rule it out of consideration, just too wide for limited counter space. Debi's gonna kill me when she see's how much bigger the Bric' is than Silvia as it is!

Since you're dead already, why not go for one of these: http://espressoparts.com/product/LM_LINEA1GR_HB ?

[hed1117]

Are they comparable?

I'm looking for a 15 amp machine in the $1200 - $1500 range for home/entertaining use - with the potential for small cafe/catrering capability.

Vetrano is at the top of my list so far...

[Balthazar_B]

You should talk with Chris Nachtrieb to see what the volume service limit of the Vetrano is. I know the Bricc's limit is 50 pulls/day. The Vetrano's might be a bit higher, but since Chris will be supporting the units, his view would be authoritative.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I know the Bricc's limit is 50 pulls/day.

Hmmm, according to 1st-Line website 200 shots a day, for direct plumbed rotary Bric anyway.

[Balthazar_B]

I'm not sure where I got that number, whether online or from a 1st Line rep, but it stuck in my mind. Could be wrong, though.

[Grant]

Hmmm, according to 1st-Line website 200 shots a day, for direct plumbed rotary Bric anyway.

Yeah...200 shots a day sound a lot more realistic. Last time I had all my family over for breakfast....I pulled about 15-20 double shots over the course of an hour...and I have a very slow steam tip and a doserless grinder dragging me down. My Bric had zero problems keeping up, even when steaming while pulling shots..which I rarely do.

Grant

[anim57]

However, if you're deciding between a Vetrano and a Bric' I'd go the Vetrano even though slightly higher price.

I'm still working through this and I'm wondering Mike: as a Bricc owner, why do you think that the Vetrano comes out on top?

Andy

[miKe mcKoffee]

I'm still working through this and I'm wondering Mike: as a Bricc owner, why do you think that the Vetrano comes out on top?

Andy

Technically "future" Bric' owner or at least future Bric' user. Paid for it yesterday, shipped today with ETA not 'till NEXT Friday. (UPS ground cross country) That said all else being relatively equal between the two, the Vetrano has brew pressure gauge and operates on 15A circuit. Ok, the Bric's higher power requiring 20A service means faster recovery and better for heavy entertaining but for most usage, even most entertaining, I highly suspect Vetrano will keep up just fine. I don't have a dedicated 20A for it in my kitchen, it'll be on a shared and I suspect I'll be needing to put in a dedicated to not have problems running other appliances even though two 20A circuits in kitchen.