Versalab Precision Packer

[HB]

...split from Upgrade to Versalab M3 grinder? by moderator...

Thanks for the info about the packer, I'll order mine now.

I'm happy with the manual method, but I'm curious: Why not the Macap auto-tamper if that's your thing? It's portable, cheaper, and holds the portafilter level.

[laservet]

I'm happy with the manual method, but I'm curious: Why not the Macap auto-tamper if that's your thing? It's portable, cheaper, and holds the portafilter level.

Good question since I hand tamp now and enjoy the ability to vary my tamp. I also like nice tampers. Several reasons, in no particular order:

1) I'm a gadget junkie

2) An acquaintance with one raves about it. But I've never used one, nor have I even seen one.

3) In my other hobby, astronomy, my experience buying high quality items from small companies who make beautiful top of the line equipment in occasional production runs has sometimes been disappointing when I have delayed a purchase to wait for a later production run, and the company discontinued the item or disappeared altogether and I lost my chance. I'm not saying that would happen in this case, but I'm a bit gun shy and would rather buy it, find out I don't really like it, and sell it at a loss than to miss the opportunity to have it in the first place. A bit silly, but...

4) I spoke with John Bicht and his enthusiasm rubbed off.

The humorist Dave Barry said it best, "There is a fine dividing line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"

You bring up a good point. How does one hold the portafilter level when this thing tamps? If the goal of owning the auto tamper is to eliminate variability there needs to be some way to stabilize the portafilter in a consistent manner. Does it accommodate a naked pf as well?

[HB]

Thanks for the explanation of your decision making; you must have lots of interesting conversations with your significant other on the topic of equipment acquisitions.

You bring up a good point. How does one hold the portafilter level when this thing tamps? If the goal of owning the auto tamper is to eliminate variability due to tamping variations, there needs to be some way to stabilize the portafilter in a consistent manner.

When I saw it demo'd at the SCAA conference, they balanced it on the portafilter's double spouts, which struck me as not conducive to a level tamp. In fact, I'd say that canting the tamp is far more common a mistake than inconsistent tamping pressure. To wit, we once staged a measured tamp-off at Counter Culture with home baristas of varying experience. Each had a quick calibration tamp on a bathroom scale, then a number of staggered attempts. All were within a few pounds.

Does it accommodate a naked pf as well?

Since the Versalab Packer has a flat platform, a bottomless portafilter should work well, though I've never seen it demonstrated in that fashion.

[Jepy]

If you want to see a very short clip of the grinder and packer in action, here's an old clip I had.

[darrylr]

A benefit the M3 packer has over other auto tampers on the market is the ability to adjust the tamp pressure. I don't know if or how much of a difference tamp pressure makes, but John Bicht has apparently experimented with this and believes that pretty high tamp pressures (well more than the typical 30-40 lbs) work the best.

Darryl

[cannonfodder]

I started with the ubiquitous 30lb tamp using the bathroom scale to learn what 30lbs feels like. I actually found it difficult to limit myself to 30 pounds. I am relatively strong, and that tamp did not feel correct. I have since moved on. I use a heavy tamp that feels more natural and hence my consistency improved.

I don't believe the 30 pound rule is a rule but merely a guideline or starting point. Some don't tamp at all and get excellent results others tamp very hard also with very good results. If I had to guess at my pressure, I would say it is around 80lbs. My table creaks when I tamp. The key is consistence, a motorized unit with a pressure transducer will be much more accurate and consistent than my arm could ever be, but that takes part of the fun out of the process for me. If it is not fun, than what is the point of doing it, and I like the fancy hammers.

As to the grinder, if someone gave one to me I am sure I would be thrilled, but when contemplating a major purchase like this I have to ask myself, if I replaced my Cimbali and Mazzer with the M3, would I get a $1200 better cup of espresso? Probably not given my modest skills, and the urge to upgrade passes as I look at the Ducati photo.

[laservet]

Thanks for the explanation of your decision making; you must have lots of interesting conversations with your significant other on the topic of equipment acquisitions.

She's used to me by now. And while the coffee and espresso complements my astronomy hobby (keeps me awake on those long nights), it pales beside my astronomy equipment in terms of storage room required in the house. Actually, we each have a second part-time job to pay for our respective hobbies so nary a question arises.

Since the Versalab Packer has a flat platform, a bottomless portafilter should work well, though I've never seen it demonstrated in that fashion.

Thanks. I'm still concerned about the ability to prevent tilting of the regular portafilter.

[laservet]

If you want to see a very short clip of the grinder and packer in action, here's an old clip I had.

Thank you!

[laservet]

A benefit the M3 packer has over other auto tampers on the market is the ability to adjust the tamp pressure. I don't know if or how much of a difference tamp pressure makes, but John Bicht has apparently experimented with this and believes that pretty high tamp pressures (well more than the typical 30-40 lbs) work the best.

When I talked with him he said he uses an 80 pound tamp pressure.

[timo888]

Another factor affecting cake porosity is compacting. The bed of loose ground coffee, poured into the filter by dropping, must be compacted, usually by hand. The compacting force applied may vary from a few kilos, for a vertical upward thrust ... [against the compacting plate on the grinder] ... to approximately 20kg, for downward compacting by a hand tool, the tamper... Compacting influences percolation even if it is weakly exerted, that is, the difference in hydraulic resistance between a loose bed and a weakly compacted bed is large, but there is only a minor variation between weakly or more forcefully compacted beds. ...

Illy, Espresso Coffee: The Chemisty of Quality, § 8.5.3 "Cake porosity". [emphasis mine]

Illy goes on to say, however, than when compacting forces become much larger than those given above, i.e. when they reach 40kg or more, the compacting begins to have something other than diminishing returns: "The influence of compacting becomes more important" [emphasis mine]. Illy is somewhat vague and imprecise here (so as not to reveal any secrets in the patented Illy pod system?), conjecturing that the effects achieved by tamping pressure at these extremes are the result of a change in the structure of the cake whereby the particles get "squeezed" into one another.

Regards
Timo

[Nick]

The concept of an autotamper is, in my opinion, misguided from the start.

As far as "technique" goes, dosing, distribution, and leveling represent the keys to proper espresso extraction. Tamping is perhaps the most superficial of the elements.

It's like being in a wheelchair and having a door that will automatically close for you. Sure, it seems nice to have that be automatic, but what you REALLY need help with is opening the door and getting through.

[timo888]

I can see where an autotamper might make good sense for someone engaged in professional coffee evaluations and comparisons where a goal would be to remove as many variables as possible, or for a mass-market shop concerned about maintaining a consistent level of quality across a fairly large and not very well-trained barista staff with high turnover.

Regards
Timo

[k7qz]

A smattering of random thoughts:

1) Dear Santa: Please bring me a Versalab M3 grinder for Christmas.

2) Darryl wrote: "A benefit the M3 packer has over other auto tampers on the market is the ability to adjust the tamp pressure. I don't know if or how much of a difference tamp pressure makes, but John Bicht has apparently experimented with this and believes that pretty high tamp pressures (well more than the typical 30-40 lbs) work the best."

3) Cannonfodder wrote: "I don't believe the 30 pound rule is a rule but merely a guideline or starting point. Some don't tamp at all and get excellent results others tamp very hard also with very good results. If I had to guess at my pressure, I would say it is around 80lbs."

It's interesting to "see" the variation amongst tamp pressures between baristas. Initially I tried my best to be a 30# guy. Then, like Cannonfodder, I morphed into an 80# guy. Recently I've been playing the "grind finer, tamp lighter" game (Maybe 5 to 10#?). I seem to prefer taste in the cup of the latter "lightweight" method (referring to tamp pressure, not barista personality! )

Anyway, this might support Timo's Illy quote: "conjecturing that the effects achieved by tamping pressure at these extremes are the result of a change in the structure of the cake whereby the particles get "squeezed" into one another."

So, I think you should buy the autotamp Laservet. That way you can precisely and consistently vary the tamp pressures and tell me if, in your opinion, I'm just imaging this taste difference with varied tamp pressure! (just trying to do my part to give you another reason to buy the autotamp! )

Hey BTW, Cannonfodder- which Duc are you lusting after? If you tell me it's this model I will be thoroughly green with envy:

http://www.ducati.com/od/ducatino...l.jhtml?model=1521

[HB]

In principle, I agree with Nick - an auto-tamper offers an expensive solution to a minor problem. However, they aren't without value, as I relayed in another discussion:

Recently I gave a "lesson" to a friend who had never touched an espresso machine in his life. He's very detail oriented, so my instructions were aimed at making the procedure as mechanical as possible (weigh the beans, WDT, Macap auto-tamper, timer, shotglass... the whole enchilada). In less than 30 minutes, he was consistently pulling good shots -- better than the ones he's paid $3 for at a cafe. Come to think of it, he had more trouble with the frothing than espresso.

A professional barista would double-over laughing at the prescriptive steps I led him through. But he and his wife were so impressed, they've given up talk about buying a super-auto. I'm convinced John's WDT steps were key to my friend's early success.

As a follow-up, my friend the raw newbie returned the Macap auto-tamper after one week. He liked it, but thought his manual tamp consistency was good enough. I offered him the Espro to try, which is a good compromise between a pro and trainer tamper.

[cannonfodder]

I need to play with the light tamp and fine grind and see what I think of it.

Hey BTW, Cannonfodder- which Duc are you lusting after? If you tell me it's this model I will be thoroughly green with envy:

http://www.ducati.com/od/ducatino...l.jhtml?model=1521

That was Larry Pegram's old ride, nice guy if ever get a chance to talk to him. When he got full factory sponsorship, competition accessories sold their race bike (they sponsored him, just up the street from work) it sat on the show room floor for sale, boy was that tempting. I want a 999R, same bike different paint. MidOhio in two weeks Every year for 7 years.


My First Love

[k7qz]

MidOhio in two weeks Every year for 7 years.

Every year for the past 7? You're living a charmed life my friend!

Ahhh, the 999R. One of the pals I took a racing course with rides an R. What a sweet, sweet bike!

OK, back to regularly scheduled coffee programming...

[timo888]

I don't mean this in a sarcastic way... just warning you because I realize it can sound that way

Is there any one thing about that bike (e.g center of gravity, ergonomics of gauges, materials used, fasteners, feel of the handle... anything) that could be applied to an espresso machine? Is any of that bike's "sweetness" translatable to a coffee machine? Italian designers were trying to borrow from fast cars post WWII with their designs.

Regards
Timo

[Psyd]

I offered him the Espro to try, which is a good compromise between a pro and trainer tamper.

I've discovered that the Espro is not a trainer. Compared to all the other tamps I just got exposed to, the only difference between it and them (with one exception) in a pro vs trainer arena is the notice that you've hit thirty lbs. As I have a tendency to creep higher and higher (I'm the kinda guy that twisted bolt-heads off), the Espro has become my default tamp with the road-cased Silvia and Rocky. While the Espro is a good training device, if I were to open a coffee shop I might just make that the default tamper.
As I said in my review of the Clicker, there is a tendency to look down our collective noses at these tampers while drooling over any other device that makes our espressos easier. Well, except for super-autos. Oh, and semi-autos. OK, nevermind!

[cannonfodder]

I find it interesting how the Italian craftsmen (and women) can take a hunk of stainless steel and transform it into an espresso machine that is as much art as a working mechanical device. As far as the bike, the soft flowing lines reflect that artisan touch. I guess you could make an auto tamper with a brake piston. Point taken, this is enough off topic discussion and my apologies for starting down that road.

I am looking forward to trying the clicker tamp. I have to admit I have always thought of them as a crutch. A learning tool to use as you progress to a 'real' tamper. If we ever do this again, maybe they could toss in an auto tamp if weight is not an issue.

[naked_barista]

Since the topic of this thread has deviated from the M3 packer to the Espro and Clicker, I'm wondering if anyone has tried the Dyno-Tamp? Looks interesting.