Versalab M3 Grinder - Page 10

[ronace]

Does anyone have the PF holder or bean hopper yet?

I've had the PF holder for about 3 months. I also ordered the Hopper about 3 months ago. I'm still waiting.

Ron

[cinergi]

How do you like the PF holder?

[ronace]

How do you like the PF holder?

As I said, I've had the PF holder for about 3 months. Once you get used to something, you wonder how you lived with out it. That's the way it is with the PF holder.

The holder is like a third hand. You insert the Portafilter into the holder, then you can go about your business of weighing, grinding tamping etc all with two hands. It's great. I would recommend purchasing.

Good Luck

Ron

[Theodore]

Hi.
What about the longevity of the grinder? Is it up to the Mazzer standards? This, because if it is not, it should be more conservative, to buy a Robur, (three phase if possible, instead).

Theodore.

[Cafesp]

Only if you consider a doserless grinder, IMHO Versalab is the one ( MDR conical & flat burr set ).
I asked Laura at Versalab s/t in mid Jan. 08 about the belt slippage as well as Jim's issues.. in short, all questions regarding the grinder's qualities & its repair histories.
She told me that after replacing & updating to the new small pulley with the teeth; belt slippage had been solved.
She said : " Jim has agreed to send back his grinder for repair about 2 months ago..." and all his issues had been resolved.
When I asked her a very specific, detail question about what was the type, model number of the new bearing if there was any?.. Maybe that was too technical question for her! the conversation was going on til I got the sense s/t new bearing configuration had been applied.
When asking about warranty, any authorized repair agent in Calif. ; I was so surprised when she said : " Versalab does not have any warranty for the grinder!" ...not 1 year, not 90 days...s/t liked.. when you had any problems with the grinder, called us , most of the problems could be fixed over the phone,.. if not you sent the grinder to us....
So the warranty & shipping is wide opened and depend who's at fault!
I said sorry to her for asking too many questions caused I had to hold back my purchase the Versalab grinder due to its quality issue.
She confirmed with me after all the updated ( dial scale, teeth pulley, Jim's issue solved ) for the past 2 years, there were no problems with the grinder

I'm very happy with my Cimbali Max Hybrid (conical & flat burr set)
Being said, for a doserless grinder, Versalab M3 is the one (conical & flat burr set); but we need another hero like Henry Ford to make it more affordable for all cafe "crazy" drinkers like us(IMHO)

Nathan

[EspressoObsessed]

I made the decision to purchase a Versalab grinder today in advance of a likely espresso machine upgrade in the next few months. I talked to Laura who said that they have a bit of an order backlog. She estimates two months until mine can be shipped. She inquired as to where I heard about the M3, and I mentioned HB & CG. Out of curiosity, I asked her whether Jim Schulman was happy with the repair Cafesp described in the post above mine. She admitted he had not sent it in yet.

Sorry if this sounds overly inquisitive, but what gives, Jim?

Mary

[HB]

Sorry if this sounds overly inquisitive, but what gives, Jim?

See Jim's earlier posts on the subject, excerpted below:

An update after a year of ownership:

The M3 is still working and still producing great grinds, but has not held up well. The drive belt slips quite regularly, the grind setting slips quite regularly, the simple friction connection between the drive wheel and shaft slips quite regularly. The bearings on the shaft are shot and noisy. The reservations Lino and Sean expressed when they looked at the construction have been born out.

The fixes for these problems that Versalab has offered have, to my mind, at least, been micky mouse; a series of temporary patches: grommets, sandpaper, glue tubes, and other trivial whatnots that crudely patch whatever else has started to slip around for maybe a few weeks at a time. My feelings towards them is far more colored by the insulting nature of this service than by the initial design flaws; However, I'm not an engineer, and my insult may be misplaced here, perhaps a few drops of loctite is the genius way to fix shot bearings.

Versalab claims that these limitations are not design flaws. Rather they say the grinder was designed for commercially roasted espresso blends. High grown SOs, lighter roasts, and cupping, according to them, is not the proper use for this grinder, and my problems stem from this misuse, not the design. You can all guess how this makes me feel; so again, I cannot comment on how insulted an objective person should be by this statement.

I'm told that the new model has addressed all these problems, and that it will grind a City Roast Guat without falling apart.

And later:

...I spoke to John Bicht prior to buying the grinder and told him I was going to use it for cupping, since the design is very much optimized for this -- for instance, the Mahlkoenig Guatemala cupping grinder retains far more grinds and needs a lot of sacrificial grinding when changing beans. He agreed. When the problems started coming up, he repeatedly told me that the grinder had not been designed for such grinding, just for espresso. He offered to replace the bearings, but not under the warranty; in this context he mentioned a new model with beefed up components. My understanding of his emails is that as far as Versalab is concerned, I've misused the grinder and have voided the warranty.

Laura offers her interpretation of events a couple posts later (the only time she's posted on this thread). Shortly thereafter, a few other owners state how the M3 has served them well. Jim's final comment on the subject:

...On Versalab's service. Perhaps, I misunderstood the emails; and perhaps, if I had sent the grinder back they would have repaired it properly at no charge to me. However, for me, the time for that is past. Every problem with these grinders has been interpreted by Versalab as not resulting from their design screwups, but from us grinding beans that are too hard. If I sent the grinder in for free repair; I would be tacitly agreeing to this spin on reality. I don't do that.

On the overall experience: This is a great grinder in its basic design and in its materials. It performs very well when it does work. However, I have no confidence anymore that Versalab can do the detailed assembly engineering required to build what is essentially a powertool, something that has to stand up to high repeated stresses. This grinder is less able to do that than even the many ultra low cost home grinders I've used up over the years. Versalab would be better off licensing their design work to a company that can build such tools.

I think that pretty well covers "what gives" from Jim's point of view.

[EspressoObsessed]

Yes, I had read the whole thread previous to my post. The last comment from Jim was 11/28/06. It was clear to me from my conversation with Laura that Versalab is very aware of Jim's stature in the online coffee community and would love to make things right for him. Clearly I am not privy to the whole story, but I would be surprised if they even charged for the upgrades/repairs. I understand that it could be frustrating to be promised that equipment would function for a specific purpose--cupping hard, lightly roasted beans--only to find it lacking. For my own selfish reasons (obviously!), I would love to know if Versalab is able to make this "right" for Jim.

Thanks
Mary

[ByronA]

Yes, I had read the whole thread previous to my post. The last comment from Jim was 11/28/06. It was clear to me from my conversation with Laura that Versalab is very aware of Jim's stature in the online coffee community and would love to make things right for him. Clearly I am not privy to the whole story, but I would be surprised if they even charged for the upgrades/repairs. I understand that it could be frustrating to be promised that equipment would function for a specific purpose--cupping hard, lightly roasted beans--only to find it lacking. For my own selfish reasons (obviously!), I would love to know if Versalab is able to make this "right" for Jim.

Thanks
Mary

This is rather timely, since I was just doing a search on the Versalab M3 to find out how it was holding out. I'm afraid I didn't complete reading Jim's review, so I wasn't privy to his mechanical wear issues.

I don't want to put words into Jim's mouth, but I think I understand where he is coming from. He purchased in good faith and full disclosure, what he thought would be an ideal cupping grinder. He was assured by the inventor that the Versalab M3 grinder was designed to do exactly that. When he started to encounter mechanical problems that he felt were justifiably design problems, he was told by this same inventor that he had "misused" the machine. Consequently, Versalab has retooled and reengineered the grinder to deal with each of these issues.

In order to avoid putting words in Jim's mouth, I will look at it from my own point of view. In my mind, Versalab has lost credibility. The same person, one of considerable influence within the company, told him two different things. What would you feel if you were told one thing to convince you to buy the machine, and then another thing to excuse the design when things started to go wrong? I don't know if Versalab can ever make things right for Jim. Perhaps if they sent him at no cost to himself, one of the new engineered models of the Versalab M3 with perhaps an apology for putting him through what they did...they might succeed.

I have to admit, for myself, it has changed things. The Versalab M3 was at the top of my list before reading about this. Credibility is so important to me, I cannot justify the expense, when I don't know how I'll be treated if things go wrong. I don't have a reputation in the coffee community, so I have no clout whatsoever! I think the Cimbali Max Hybrid has just gone to number one on my wish list.

[roblumba]

Where is Versalab getting their beans? Maybe they need to plug into what everyone else is using? For example, I've been drinking lighter roasts exclusively for years now. I just don't like the darker roasts and rarely buy them.

I noticed the online advertisement explains it's use is for cupping.

Any coffee shop, or roaster, or cupper will finally get fully in control of their product.
Any espresso lover will be in a new world of experience.

I wonder how they plan to test their new design changes. It's one thing to work a new design change into a product. That's easy. The hard part is quality assurance, making sure that the new design changes actually fix the problems. That can take just as much work, or more than the initial design change.

Also, I looked online and the website gives no indication of any updates to the Versalab M3. Looks the same to me.

[ByronA]

I wonder how they plan to test their new design changes. It's one thing to work a new design change into a product. That's easy. The hard part is quality assurance, making sure that the new design changes actually fix the problems. That can take just as much work, or more than the initial design change.

Also, I looked online and the website gives no indication of any updates to the Versalab M3. Looks the same to me.

The big visual change I saw is that they have put in a grind adjustment dial. They have also added new options, and they have increased the price of the base unit.

That doesn't change things for me though. Customer service is everything in my books. I will keep watching, but I think the Cimbali Max Hybrid is now at the top of my wish list. Too bad...

[AndyS]

That doesn't change things for me though. Customer service is everything in my books.

FWIW, my customer service experience with Versalab has been stellar. They've repeatedly gone above and beyond the call of duty to keep me happy.

But if you buy from Versalab, you're dealing with a completely different animal. IMHO, Versalab has put more innovation in their little espresso machine and grinder than all the Mazzers, Cimbali, Dalle Cortes and La Marzoccos put together.

They are a miniscule operation that makes handmade, boutique coffee products only. They have NOTHING in common with Mazzer, Cimbali, etc, both in the nature of their products and in the way they do business. The machines are a little high-strung, and probably require a little more care and feeding to keep them going. I'm not sure what the exact automotive analogy would be, but think maybe Lamborghini vs Cadillac. Different strokes for different folks!

In terms of appearance, compact design and grounds distribution, the M3 grinder is certainly in a class by itself. You should buy from them if you think their product meets your needs better than the competition, and if you like the idea of buying directly from the same slightly eccentric folks who personally design and build the things. If you demand to be serviced in exactly the same way that a Mazzer or Cimbali would service you, perhaps you should just buy from those companies instead.

[darrylr]

My experience with Versalab is same as Andy's. I have an M3 grinder and whenever I've needed anything they've taken care of me. I've had the grinder now for a couple years or so and haven't had any failures. Just did a few updates as they improved the unit. I haven't quite kept current with the latest changes like the toothed belt and don't really need to since the grinder is working great for me as it is.

Darryl

[ByronA]

My experience with Versalab is same as Andy's. I have an M3 grinder and whenever I've needed anything they've taken care of me. I've had the grinder now for a couple years or so and haven't had any failures. Just did a few updates as they improved the unit. I haven't quite kept current with the latest changes like the toothed belt and don't really need to since the grinder is working great for me as it is.

Darryl

I'm glad to hear you guys are having good experiences with Versalab. Maybe I am being too harsh on them...I'll wait and see. I am not going to be buying another grinder for a while yet, so I can afford to wait and see. Who knows, maybe the great espresso god in the sky will send something my way before that. Bottom line is that if I don't find a great deal on used equipment before upgrade-itus sets in, then I will buy the best new grinder for my needs that I can afford. I'll admit that I do love the looks of the Versalab M3, and it sounds like the right grinder for me. But customer service really is important to me, so I will be watching to see what happens.

Cheers,
Byron

[Cafesp]

Thanks Coffee God! coffee so gooood! It's the grinder! Stupid!
My M3 has only about 7lbs coffee ground on it, this is the new way better improved version compared to Jim's grinder. (that's the Price&Pride of being early adopters)

An update after a year of ownership:

The M3 is still working and still producing great grinds, but has not held up well. The drive belt slips quite regularly, the grind setting slips quite regularly, the simple friction connection between the drive wheel and shaft slips quite regularly. The bearings on the shaft are shot and noisy....

I'm told that the new model has addressed all these problems, and that it will grind a City Roast Guat without falling apart.

Who really got the credit for the better improved version?
John? or Jim? or HB?

Cafesp

[laservet]

My experience with Versalab has been great. Super grinder, eliminates distribution issues, no wear issues after about a year of 4-10 doubles per day. I've ordered the portafilter holder but haven't received it yet. My Mazzer Mini has been relegated to grinding for my drip machine. Versalab customer service has been just fine; my grinder suffered considerable shipping damage and Laura took care of me. I'm a happy camper.

I have the Versalab packer, too. I run it off compressed nitrogen. I can't really evaluate it yet since it is sized at 57mm for my next machine and is a bit too small in diameter for the 58mm pf that I use now. I will have the opportunity to evaluate it properly in March since my GS3 should be installed the first week of next month.

[mls64]

My experience with Versalab has been great. Super grinder, eliminates distribution issues, no wear issues after about a year of 4-10 doubles per day. I've ordered the portafilter holder but haven't received it yet.

Same here, 4-8 doubles per day for over two years now, no problems other than going through a couple of belts. Still waiting for shipment of the knurled pulley, but once I have that I don't expect any issues at all. The grinder has been fantastic.

[CafSuperCharged]

On their site (http://www.versalab.com/server/coffee/grindernew.html) Versalab claim "Any coffee shop, or roaster, or cupper will finally get fully in control of their product. ... Any espresso lover will be in a new world of experience."

Is there a roaster or cupper in this forum that uses the VL grinder in their professional context and is satisfied it lives up to this statement?

As I have been following the VL grinder evolution on HB in the past 3-4 years, I would expect its growing pains to have gone. I am not sure however, a year's use at 4-8 doubles per day is sufficient proof of the grinder living up to the claim.

As far as guarantee (none) and service (great) are concerned - not my biggest worry. The Bicht/Dearborn enterprise has a reputation for honesty, albeit communication (for starters between the two) and management of expectations could improve a lot. If I can believe forista on this site (and I am very much inclined to).

Does somebody have to report any new evolutions w.r.t. here?

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[Psyd]

Is there a roaster or cupper in this forum that uses the VL grinder in their professional context and is satisfied it lives up to this statement?

Jason at Cartel Coffee Labs in Tempe AZ has on on his counter, and at last report , 'a small part keeps breaking that keeps the grinder from working'. I'm making some attempt to get his views on the grinder itself, and a review of the service that he receives as a pro customer.