Versalab M3 Grinder - Page 8

[another_jim]

An update after a year of ownership:

The M3 is still working and still producing great grinds, but has not held up well. The drive belt slips quite regularly, the grind setting slips quite regularly, the simple friction connection between the drive wheel and shaft slips quite regularly. The bearings on the shaft are shot and noisy. The reservations Lino and Sean expressed when they looked at the construction have been born out.

The fixes for these problems that Versalab has offered have, to my mind, at least, been micky mouse; a series of temporary patches: grommets, sandpaper, glue tubes, and other trivial whatnots that crudely patch whatever else has started to slip around for maybe a few weeks at a time. My feelings towards them is far more colored by the insulting nature of this service than by the initial design flaws; However, I'm not an engineer, and my insult may be misplaced here, perhaps a few drops of loctite is the genius way to fix shot bearings.

Versalab claims that these limitations are not design flaws. Rather they say the grinder was designed for commercially roasted espresso blends. High grown SOs, lighter roasts, and cupping, according to them, is not the proper use for this grinder, and my problems stem from this misuse, not the design. You can all guess how this makes me feel; so again, I cannot comment on how insulted an objective person should be by this statement.

I'm told that the new model has addressed all these problems, and that it will grind a City Roast Guat without falling apart.

[RapidCoffee]

Versalab claims that these limitations are not design flaws. Rather they say the grinder was designed for commercially roasted espresso blends. High grown SOs, lighter roasts, and cupping, according to them, is not the proper use for this grinder, and my problems stem from this misuse, not the design. You can all guess how this makes me feel; so again, I cannot comment on how insulted an objective person should be by this statement.

Really sorry to hear this. "Commercially roasted espresso blends"? That's pretty lame. In your position, I'd feel equally misused.
________
John

[kaioslider]

Yeah, that's BS. I'm also not an engineer, but my nose works quite well, so let me run the numbers. Let see, cost, one year, um, limited home use, err, carry the 2, and yep, BS.

[RapidCoffee]

In my field (computer science) we'd say "that's not a bug, it's a feature".

[hperry]

An update after a year of ownership:

The M3 is still working and still producing great grinds, but has not held up well. The drive belt slips quite regularly, the grind setting slips quite regularly, the simple friction connection between the drive wheel and shaft slips quite regularly. The bearings on the shaft are shot and noisy. The reservations Lino and Sean expressed when they looked at the construction have been born out..

It's always interesting to me how different people experience the same product. Could be different usage patterns. But, I grind both home roasts and commercial and have almost no issues with the M3. I assume you have replaced the belt with the new one? I did have some slipping until that change was made (provided free of charge).

Versalab claims that these limitations are not design flaws. Rather they say the grinder was designed for commercially roasted espresso blends.

I don't like this tendency to revisionist history. There was a similar situation when we were told that the grinder was "meant" to be loaded after it was started. Neither of these "design" considerations appeared in the literature to my memory.

I'm told that the new model has addressed all these problems, and that it will grind a City Roast Guat without falling apart

Didn't know that a new revision of the grinder was proposed.

Have to say though, that for day-to-day trouble free grinding I haven't had anything that really touches the Versalab. And Versalab has consistently offered prompt support to resolve the few issues that have come up.

[cannonfodder]

In my field (computer science) we'd say "that's not a bug, it's a feature".

It is an undocumented feature.

But to Jim's remarks, I have never used the Versalab until I visited him. The grinder is novel but my first first-hand impression was not that favorable. It looked more in line with my old Gaggia MDF, more toy than precision machined $1300 grinder. We even had the grind 'slip' while grinding a shot. The adjustment just slowly started turning while grinding. I thought the grind looked superb and the shots tasted wonderful but personally, I would not pay that much for it. I would go with the Mazzer conical.

It has its place in a niche market, it just does not fit into my niche.

[hperry]

An update after a year of ownership:

The M3 is still working and still producing great grinds, but has not held up well. The drive belt slips quite regularly, the grind setting slips quite regularly, the simple friction connection between the drive wheel and shaft slips quite regularly. The bearings on the shaft are shot and noisy. The reservations Lino and Sean expressed when they looked at the construction have been born out.

The fixes for these problems that Versalab has offered have, to my mind, at least, been micky mouse; a series of temporary patches: grommets, sandpaper, glue tubes, and other trivial whatnots that crudely patch whatever else has started to slip around for maybe a few weeks at a time. My feelings towards them is far more colored by the insulting nature of this service than by the initial design flaws; However, I'm not an engineer, and my insult may be misplaced here, perhaps a few drops of loctite is the genius way to fix shot bearings.

I'm told that the new model has addressed all these problems, and that it will grind a City Roast Guat without falling apart.

Quick update:

I had not heard of a "new" model of the M3, so checked with Versalab. They confirmed that there is no new model.

Versalab has voluntarily, and for free, offered two updates that address two of the three problems cited above. A new adjustment locking knob and lock knob buffer fixed the grind setting problem. A new belt, solved the belt slipping problem. Both were issues and were addressed.

I have experienced no problems with shaft bearings. Would be interesting to know whether other owners have.

The "temporary patches" mentioned in the quoted post were offered as "work arounds," not solutions, while a longer term solution was developed.

I am puzzled by the comment about the "insulting nature of this service." I experience Versalab as a company that listens carefully to customer feedback and provides solutions to identified problems. That they have provided these fixes free and voluntarily seems to me personally to deserve praise.

[pdx]

I have experienced no problems with shaft bearings. Would be interesting to know whether other owners have.

I've not had any problems with my Versalab's bearing. Intuitively the design seemed risky- the burrs are a long way from the bearing. I keep looking for eccentricity in the rotation expecting to see something, but it seems to hold up well. It sure grinds better than the Mazz Mini E & Mazz Majors I've compared it to.

When I showed the Versalab grinder to Mark at Synesso he was amazed by the build & grind quality. He basically dismissed my bearing concerns. Looking at the machining he wasn't surprised at all by the asking price.

That said, I think someone could home-brew a better grinder for less money. The prototype grinder I saw at Synesso's shop was pretty simple & there's nothing expensive or complicated about it.

[another_jim]

The problems I had were exacerbated, or emerged earlier, since I use the grinder for cupping. Cupping is done with light roasts barely past the first crack using a coarse grind. This exposes the shaft to a lot more lateral forces, and led to the early wear on my bearings. I received the what Versalab calls proper updates, and what I call patches, for the belt and grind setting, and these are hit and miss for cupping. The patch, update, or whatever to reduce bearing stress, a Loktite brand thread glue, worked for about a day.

I spoke to John Bicht prior to buying the grinder and told him I was going to use it for cupping, since the design is very much optimized for this -- for instance, the Mahlkoenig Guatemala cupping grinder retains far more grinds and needs a lot of sacrificial grinding when changing beans. He agreed. When the problems started coming up, he repeatedly told me that the grinder had not been designed for such grinding, just for espresso. He offered to replace the bearings, but not under the warranty; in this context he mentioned a new model with beefed up components. My understanding of his emails is that as far as Versalab is concerned, I've misused the grinder and have voided the warranty.

Maybe it was the bubblewrap showing a lack of the proper awe

[darrylr]

I've owned an M3 grinder that was among the earliest ones they made. It's worked flawlessly for me. I probably don't beat mine as hard as Jim does his, but so far I've had no signs of bearing problems and never had the belt slip (I'm still using the original belt--never asked for the alternative one). I did get the lock knob upgrade, which John Bicht was kind enough to install for me. It's hard to account for why different people have had widely different experiences with the company, but in my personal experience I've found Versalab people to be courteous and helpful.

Darryl

[lennoncs]

I am curious as to the type of bearing used on the grinder, angular contact with preload or a deep groove type with minimal preload, etc.

anybody have a bearing number?

just curiosity getting the better of me


sean

[lauradearborn]

We're sorry to read on this forum that Jim Schulman still has problems with his M3 Grinder. The last we heard, it was resolved back in July. The last we heard from Jim was this email - "The improvements you describe for the new version sound like they will do the trick. As I said, I find it an excellent cupping grinder, and would be loath to use anything else. I have no doubt that once the bugs are out, it will make its mark for that."

We cannot know if something goes wrong in the field unless we are told.

Customers - please call us if you have problems. Or questions. We are totally available.

There is no new Versalab Grinder in the works. We have made some refinements in the details of the existing design, all of which are retrofittable. In the case of the bearings, a change in shim thickness and procedure in installation was all that was necessary. To retrofit, however, requires essentially complete disassembly of the grinder - half a day's job.

The motor drive pulley has had a surface improvement in that it now has essentially tiny teeth that grip the belt very well indeed.

Customers have been notified of field fixes and those who needed it have been sent kits at no charge, including an improved adjustment knob and a change in the belt specs.

In the specific case of grinder adjustment slipping, it is simply that the adjustment lock knob needs proper adjustment. One customer had this problem on a factory installed knob, and it was fixed over the telephone. The field installation kits came with the information.

By the way, Versalab sets no restrictions on what beans are used with this Grinder, whether commercial roast, light roast, SO. . . In fact, the Grinder was designed specifically with cupping in mind.

As most of our customers know, we never let down a customer. We have always fixed any problems that have occurred over the many years we have been in business.

Laura
laura@versalab.com

[another_jim]

I don't want to get into another "he said, she said" contest on this; but customer relations at Versalab seems to work this way. There are two issues here, the construction of the grinder and the quality of Versalab's service.

On the construction of the grinder. The same email Laura quotes had this as my final status report:

I'll reseal the unit with more loktite and see if it works at a looser setting.

It didn't. That was my third and last try; and I didn't email them again.

To be perfectly honest, everytime I opened up the pulley-wheel and axle assembly, I got angrier and angrier. I had paid $800 odd for a grinder designed so shoddily that the main transmission was held together by a simple bolt that had to be set just loose enough not to destroy the bearing, and still tight enough to transmit the grinding force. Let me explain this:
-- a slotted screw has a better transmission than this, it has a slot, and the screw driver pushes against it sideways;
-- imagine trying to twist open a screw which has a nickel sized flat head by pressing down on it with a screw driver that also has only a nickel sized flat end, using only the friction created by the downward pressure to generate the sideways torque;
-- now try grinding coffee with the same arrangement;
-- now be told that if you press down too hard, you'll damage the bearing underneath
-- that's how the pulley to axle arrangement works on the M3 grinder

I gave up on trying to "tune" this bad joke with loktite, and acetone, or whatever else they would come up with in the next iteration. I reset it so the bearings are overstressed, but so that nothing slips either. When the grinder stops working, I will throw it out. Life is too short not to cut ones losses.

On Versalab's service. Perhaps, I misunderstood the emails; and perhaps, if I had sent the grinder back they would have repaired it properly at no charge to me. However, for me, the time for that is past. Every problem with these grinders has been interpreted by Versalab as not resulting from their design screwups, but from us grinding beans that are too hard. If I sent the grinder in for free repair; I would be tacitly agreeing to this spin on reality. I don't do that.

On the overall experience: This is a great grinder in its basic design and in its materials. It performs very well when it does work. However, I have no confidence anymore that Versalab can do the detailed assembly engineering required to build what is essentially a powertool, something that has to stand up to high repeated stresses. This grinder is less able to do that than even the many ultra low cost home grinders I've used up over the years. Versalab would be better off licensing their design work to a company that can build such tools.

[hperry]

When you do decide to "throw it out" please consider throwing it this way - I'll pay shipping and a recycle fee to boot. A short trip to Versalab for the replacement bearing Laura mentions and I'll make one of several local users who have used and admired mine very happy.

[rasqual]

Well, I'll post here, finally. Hi Jim.

For what it's worth, I'll put in a plug for my favorite machinist -- a friend who colaborated with me on the ring roaster. He does everything from model train transmissions (wet gearboxes, tiny gears he fabs) to rock crusher engine mods. CNC capable, an unbelievable welder . . . and now a roaster manufacturer.

If anyone wants some custom work done, he won't be cheap but the result will be worth it. Personally, I'm not even doing espresso yet (so I'll be very Mr. Humble in these parts), but the Versalab sure looks like a sweet design. However, I already have a couple mods I'd like to see.

No rush, though. I'll have to cycle a couple more kids out into the world before I can afford to take espresso as seriously as I'll want to. Not buying a Versalab will probably allow me to pay for another, what -- week of college? ;-D

[digito]

Distance from the burr to the bearing and the belt caught my attention at first sight last year.
The machine does a great grinding job but the reliability worries me.
my thought to get a M3 is held up. finally Jim got the problem.

The leverage effect applies large torque on the bearing during grinding. If 100lb light-roasted beans can damage it, maybe 300-500lb dark-roasted beans will cause the same problem after 3-5yr of use. Another bearing near the burr may ease this problem. I might be wrong, but the durability of a commercial product is much important than its performance.

The idea of M3 is brilliant. If these small concerns are removed, it's definitely a killer.

[rasqual]

A fairly simple design change would be to add a bearing above the pulley, rather than below the current bearing. Two spare belts could be pre-mounted around the shaft in an unobtrusive stowage, ready to drop in place as replacements, with no need for disassembly of the bearing.

When excellent things work, the results are excellent. When they don't . . .

Yah, don't chuck it, Jim. I'd beg it off you for use at the farmer's market -- though that's a long way for a potentially ideal espresso grinder to fall.

[another_jim]

So far the grinder is moaning, but hanging in. When it quits, I'll put it up as a prize for the DIYers here.

[cannonfodder]

Now that sound like a fun project.

[Teme]

What's the status on the M3s? Jim has experienced problems, how about others? The grinders are still going strong? No issues?

Br,
Teme