Valentina steam performance

[happyvalentina]

I am the happy owner of a La Valentina (the version with a switch instead of a lever).

Is a beautiful machine indeed (I've been the owner of Silvia for 6 years), and I really appreciate the ability to steam right after pulling the shot.

But ... even though I was prepared, that steaming would be difficult when upgrading to a HX machine I seem to be a little bit stuck. No microfoam

I've been practising for approx 7 weeks without luck. It seems impossible for me to get rotation in the milk, the (faint) rotation there might be vanishes when I raise the pitcher. I have no problems getting volume in the stretching phase, but ends up with very "soapy" milk.

The pressurestat kicks in at 0.9 and stops at 1.15-1.20. I've have measured the temperature of a shot (after cooling flush and 25 seconds waiting) to 202F, which was my usual target temperature at Silvia.

I start with milk and pitcher at ~35-40F and stop at 158F. The entire steam process takes 45-50 seconds, which seems a bit high ?

The pressure in the boiler just before closing the steam valve ends at 0.6-0.7 - I think this is a bit low.

Is my Valentina performing alright ? Am I performing alright ? How do I move on from here ?

I am using the stock two hole tip. Gold Pro tips and the like are not an option (I am unable to buy them in Denmark)

Comments and suggestions are very welcome

Kim

[HB]

You didn't mention the volume you are steaming, but everything you describe sounds consistent with the Buyer's Guide steaming performance. The stock tip presents a tricky balance of just a teenie too much volume and not enough velocity. I've found it works reasonable with 9-10 ounces of milk, though you need a practiced hand to achieve microfoam. That's why the smaller hole steam tips are so popular - the boiler pressure remains high and the steaming time is slower, so you've got lots of time to finesse the development. Swirling is slower of course, and the sweetness it a bit less, but the correct texture is a snap.

EspressoParts.com sells a two-hole steam tip that fits Valentina and is very, very easy to use:



They will ship outside the US (contact Brian if you have questions).

You can keep the pressure slightly higher with the stock tip by forcing the heating element on before starting as described in the Buyer's Guide. My preference is to use the Gold Pro 2 or EPNW two-hole tip for volumes of eight ounces or less and the stock tip for anything greater. When you want to swirl the milk, try angling the pitcher slightly towards you and positioning the wand tip near the outside edge. You should at least get a "standing wave" toward the lower end and swirling. Practicing with water helps until you get the hang of it.

PS: Teme is a frequent contributor and may have other vendor suggestions for your locale.

[happyvalentina]

Hi Dan

Tnx for your comments, I've expected a reply from you

I've have read and reread all your Valentina stuff and learned a lot this way, that's a great resource.

I knewly immediate when I shut down my work computer earlier this day, that I forgot to mention the volume. That's 8.3 oz, just below your recommendations. I've tried to lower the volume, not to increase it, as I did not expect to get a larger volume to spin; I might give it a try.

I have a very good practice in starting steaming just before the heater element kicks off, thanks to your articles.

I just wondered if 0.6-0.7 "final" pressure is "normal" for Valentina when steaming 8.3 oz, I think it seems a bit low? I am not eager to increase the temperature, as it is just spot on.

I didn't know that espressoparts ships to Denmark, I'll give them a call, thanks for the tip (no pun intended)!

I do know Teme faintly (we use the same - only! - fresh/green coffee shop in Copenhagen), and might meet him in some kind of small "coffee working group" soon, but I expect he is busy with his new Pavoni

You've given me a few things to try out, thanks again.

Kim

[Teme]

Hi Kim,

As it happens, I am getting a Gold Pro tip from 1st-Line and I already have the espressoparts 2-hole tip. As they are very much alike, I don't see a need to keep them both. In other words if you are interested and can hold on for a couple of weeks, I will have one of these (or the New Isomac 2-hole tip from Chris' Coffee) to spare. I am currently trying a couple of these on my machine and soon after I get the Gold Pro I will know which one(s) I am willing to give up and what Iam going to keep... ...just a thought. I think shipping a single tip might turn out to be expensive with the shipping, duty, taxes and handling. This might be a cheaper alternative for you.

Yep, I've been talking with Rune at Risteriet (I assume this is the shop you are referring to) regarding the "Copenhagen home-barista jam" (I hope this is not a copyright infringement Dan ) to be arranged at my place early next year and Rune did mention you. Drop me an email sometime if you are interested in joining. It looks like we will have quite a crowd and if things work out well, we might have a few different machines, grinders and coffees to try out...

By the way, I know of three roasters in Copenhagen. Risteriet you already know and they are my favourites, but there is also Kontra Coffee (who I also like a lot) and Estate Coffee. Kontra also sells green coffee.

Br,
Teme

[happyvalentina]

Hmm ... I really need some help here.

I've been producing microfoam consistently on Silvia, but not at all at Valentina.

I've now tried cranking up the pressurestat 0.1 bar. I've tried the 2 hole tip from espressoparts, but it seems to kill my steaming performance totally. The pressurestat clicks on and off several times when steaming 8.3 oz with the 2-hole tip !?!.

The stock tip hasn't improved either, after increasing the pressure.

I have a weak suspicion that the steam performance of my machine is bad. How can I check this ? The pressure readout ends at 0.6 bar at the end of steaming 8.3 oz milk to 158F (stock tip). This takes ~50 seconds (from the fridge).

Increasing the milk volume to 10 or 11 oz makes everything worse.

Any help would be appreciated.

Tnx, Kim

[HB]

I've been producing microfoam consistently on Silvia, but not at all at Valentina.

Ironically I've read plenty of new Silvia owners asking about alternative steam tips because they can't produce microfoam with the stock tip. Invariably an oldtimer offers the same advice: "Be patient and practice. I consistently produce wonderful microfoam using the stock tip." That was my own experience too.

I exchanged Valentina's stock tip for a low volume two-hole version from Chris' Coffee (no longer available); it's ridgeless version similar to the "new" Isomac steam tip. Since then I've tried a small handful of the popular 10mm male threaded steam tips. The "tube" tip remains one of my least favorite:


(Click image to see more details)

Jim Schulman recently joked about the "Goldilocks' dilemma" of steam tips; in your case, the stock two-hole is too large (pressure drops unacceptably) and the "cheater" tip is too small (output is so restricted, the heating element cycles on and off). My solution is to adapt the volume of milk to the machine / boiler / tip combination. For the two-hole tip from espressoparts.com, it would be around 5-6 ounces of milk, which works out nicely for single servings. If you wish to serve mondo lattes (+8 ounces), then the stock tip is the better choice, though the pressure will drop off to around 0.6 bar before all is done.

I have a weak suspicion that the steam performance of my machine is bad. How can I check this ? The pressure readout ends at 0.6 bar at the end of steaming 8.3 oz milk to 158F (stock tip). This takes ~50 seconds (from the fridge).

I quickly double-checked the eight ounce (236ml) timing and it was 33 seconds, which is consistent with my prior measurements for the Buyer's Guide. Oddly enough, the numbers published on Whole Latte Love's website for La Valentina are 47 seconds for 8 ounces (and two ounces of added water, same as a Rancilio Silvia, huh?!?).

Increasing the milk volume to 10 or 11 oz makes everything worse.

I bet! The two-hole tip from espressoParts.com is very easy to use for small volumes. I suggest practicing with it using a small straight-sided pitcher (12 ounce) and not too much milk. You can start out with the wand dead center for stretching. Because the holes angle outward, I find it easier to tilt the pitcher forward and slightly right, positioning the tip towards the side and off center to the left. This creates a nice counter-clockwise whirlpool, or at least a standing end-over-end wave for texturing.

If none of these suggestions help, I'll need more to go on. That is, you're not getting microfoam, so what are you getting? Huge bubbles? Flavorless hot milk?

[cajun_brew]

Glad I found this thread, I too am a new HX owner who use was use to blowing milk out of the pitcher on my Silvia and am now getting either hot milk or a layer of thick foam on top of hot milk. I've had Anita for about 1 month and got it right about 2 times at first then lowered my boiler pressure to top out at 1.1 bar to get my temp right and can't seem to get good micro-foam.

Is the stock tip Anita similar to the one at espressoparts? If not will it fit my machine?

After practice and more practice should I eventually be able to good micro-foam at a boiler pressure of 1.1(top of cycle) or will I have to go higher?

I'm going to try what you suggested Dan and see how it goes.

I feel like I'll eventually get it.

[Grant]

I too had run the gambit of steam tips...from the stock tip on my Bricoletta, which blew milk all over my walls, to a replacement tip that seemed to take forever to steam 6 oz, and a few in between.

Finding my "happy place" with steam tips came closer when I got the EPNW two hole tip, but it was still quite slow for doing larger volumes...particularly in the morning when I make two very large lattes for my wife and myself as we walk out the door. It made great microfoam though with smaller volumes, but it wasn't fast enough.

Then while unhappily comparing all my steam tips one morning, I noticed the holes on the new EPNW tip were about 1/2 the size of the holes on the tips I found too fast/powerful. So I dug around my drill bit drawer and happened across a drill bit that seemed right between the two sizes. I drilled out both holes in the EPNW tip to the slightly larger size and tried it out....wow - perfect. It has now been a couple weeks since I did this, and I am still content I have the perfect tip (at least for my skill level, milk volumes, and boiler pressure (about 1.0 - 1.1 bar)). My quest ended.

The bit ended up being a 3/64" - from a dremel drill bit set. It still feels perfect to me...I can do volumes anywhere from 4oz up to 16oz (still mastering the 4oz...but if I can do it...anyone can.

Note: There is a post on the Coffeegeek forums from me on this as well called "Bricoletta Steam Tip".

Grant

[barry]

Glad I found this thread, I too am a new HX owner who use was use to blowing milk out of the pitcher on my Silvia and am now getting either hot milk or a layer of thick foam on top of hot milk. I've had Anita for about 1 month and got it right about 2 times at first then lowered my boiler pressure to top out at 1.1 bar to get my temp right and can't seem to get good micro-foam.

practice. seriously. don't just make milk for drinks, get a couple of gallons of milk and just stand at the machine and froth froth froth froth. consider the milk expense an investment in learning how to use your new machine.


--barry "and then try frothing on a 4-group marzocco set to 1.6 bar"

[cajun_brew]

Thanks Barry

Yeah, I've kinda done a little of this already--- not gallons but I'll steam a few batches after my wife's afternoon drink. I keep reminding myself just how long it took to get good micro-foam on Silvia, and the HX and 2 hole tip is just different. I'll get it sooner or later.

[happyvalentina]

Well .. I've seem to found the reason for part of my problem, though not solved it yet.

I manage to get good circulation in the milk and it looks really good ... just until I lower the steam tip. Then it suddenly start making bubbles, which decreases the spinning and ends up ruining the microfoam ...

The bubble making originates at the joint between the steam tip and the steam arm. The joint is appearently not tight, and worse is ... I'm unable to make it tight. I've tried with sealing tape (or whatever you call it in english), but I'm unable to tighten it completely. I suppose there shall be no gasket in this joint, as it seems to be originally sealed with the same kind of tape.

How do I get a tight connection without leaks ?

Kim

[HB]

A few good turns of Teflon tape (plumber's tape) should seal the threads, but another option is a small rubber O-ring:


From the Elektra A3 review on the Bench

The steam tip only has to be finger tight against the O-ring to seal. This is convenient if you like to switch tips a lot. Any respectable hardware store should have a correctly sized O-ring for less than a quarter (big stores like Home Depot usually cost more for onesy-twosy items like this, or don't sell them individually).

[happyvalentina]

I'm not sure whether is is teflon tape, I have tried. It is very thin and delicate, but I'll find out.

I was not sure if an O-ring was a usable option when dealing with steam (it seems like a much simpler solution), I'll certainly try that out. Thanks.

Kim

[shadowfax]

My Valentina came with a little white plastic "gasket" that seems to keep the seal just fine. Did yours come with this, or did it get lost, perhaps in cleaning (I've almost lost mine a couple of times...)?

I would have to defer to Dan on this, but I'd imagine a rubber gasket would dry out rather quickly on a steam arm, just like the gasket in the brew head. I'd imagine it'll last a a good long time, though, even when it dries out, and it'll probably still work even then.

--Nicholas

[happyvalentina]

I haven't seen anything like a gasket, I'm pretty sure there has never been one. Only some white "tape" or "thread" seal, which never worked very well ... I can't make it work either, I'll try the O-ring in a few days

Kim

[happyvalentina]

Nicholas, this "gasket" you mention, is it a physical "ring" of some material which you can remove with the tip? (I.e. it is not just tape/threads)

Kim

[shadowfax]

it's a little white plastic ring... as in, it's hard and only mildly pliable... just pliable enough that it makes a seal, but not too soft that it's rubber (which I would think would eventually dry out and crack).

I really wish I could take a picture, but my camera is out of town (left it at my parents' house over christmas break...). Here's a cutout from an old picture that's about as good as I can get at the moment. I suppose it will help you little enough, though, if yours didn't come with it. I believe the pulsante (or whatever it's called) models are rather different from mine--I didn't get the omnidirectional wand, but hey, I did get a nickel-plated boiler, I think that's a fair trade.

[barry]

it's a little white plastic ring... as in, it's hard and only mildly pliable... just pliable enough that it makes a seal, but not too soft that it's rubber (which I would think would eventually dry out and crack).

it's probably teflon.

[cannonfodder]

The white 'tape' is as Dan pointed out, Teflon tape or plumbers tape, it may take three or four wraps to seal depending on how tight the lands and grooves fit up.

The small white ring you see on shadowfax's machine is the same on my Isomac, it is a small hard plastic washer. I do not believe it is Teflon, just plastic, but I have been wrong before.

The black rubber gasket you see in Dan's post from the Elektra (owe how I wish I had one) A3 is a soft pliable rubber O ring. Any hardware store should have them. Just take the tip to the hardware store and tell them that you need an 'O' ring to fit this.

In either case, you should be able to finger tighten the tip to seal, I would be very hesitant to use a wrench to tighten. Too much torque and you will rip the threads off the steam wand.

I have found that with my Millennium I get very nice rotation and 'mixing' by not plunging the tip to deep after I stretch the milk. I submerge the tip just to the tip/wand seam. I also hold my pitcher at about a 30 degree angle. I rest the steam wand in the pour spout of the pitcher. It helps me to steady the pitcher while steaming.

[happyvalentina]

I certainly do not intend to use any tools tightening the tip ... the fingers must do ...

The teflon tape is inadequate ... tried a few turns, tried many turns, no success ... and I view myself as well skilled for mechanics ... no visible grooves or scratches.

Anyway, I've mounted an O-ring today which seems to fit well. Alas, out of milk today and a little busy, but I'll test it Thursday.

Kim