Hi all, this is my first post. It is finally time to replace my Krups (purchased at a tag sale for $7.00) for a real machine. I've been reading specs & reviews to the point where I'm now concerned about aspects of espresso making I had no idea even existed. I've decided that my budget with a bit of wiggle room is $1500.
I want a direct plumb machine with a rotary pump. Size is not an issue, but being a designer, style is. I'm partial to the deco look of the Fiorenzato Bricoletta which has gotten super reviews except for milk steaming. The Alex is compelling with good reviews also. Others on my list are Vetrano, Vivaldi II (a little more $) and the Reneka Techno which would really blow my budget. Do I really need a dual boiler? Are all the single boiler machines in this list pretty equal?
Oh, & one more consideration, the cup height that will fit under the filter basket, I'd like to be able to use a standard coffee cup for multi shot espressos.
Thanks in advance for advice & input.
The Alex fits your budget and your wants it appears.
But cup height can be an issue with it, although a workaround is simple. What happened is that one of the complaints about the MK1 Alex was the size of the drip tray. So they increased the size, but in doing that, the height of the tray is higher.
The easiest fix is to just take off the spouts, quite easy. Of course, this does take a little away from the beauty of the machine. So what I did was to remove the single spout from one of the portafilters and use it for my Cafe Cremas, Caps, Lattes and Americanos. Most full size cups fit just fine under the spoutless portafilter and it doesn't have any downside for single cup.
Then I just left the spout on the dual-portafilter and use it when I want to pour a couple shots, which is rare for me.
Hope this helps in your search and evaluation.
BTW, make sure you have a good grinder when you move up.
Grinder HUH... well I have thought about that but it has always been something I thought I'd get in the future. My current grinder for making coffee is a Capresso, probably cost about $50. I'm betting that is a no no for serious espresso.
signguy wrote:I've decided that my budget with a bit of wiggle room is $1500.
Does that budget include a grinder? Because it's a more important consideration than the espresso machine. The Feature Spotlight introduces several of the most popular high-end grinders short enough to fit under your cabinets.
As for your HX versus dual boiler question, the answer is a firm "it depends who you ask." Clearly temperature management is easier with a dedicated brew boiler. The jury's still out whether a flat temperature profile produces a superior espresso. To get beyond basic recommendations, we need to know more about your usage. Mostly espressos for yourself, or are you a dedicated latte lover? Plan to serve groups or only you and a friend or two? Have you read the site reviews, and are there a few standouts (and if so, why)?
One other recommendation that may seem odd: Consider the vendor and the available online support as much as the equipment. These are specialized equipment. You want a vendor who will be there to answer your questions and address problems if they occur (unless you live in Seattle, looking up "espresso repairs" in the Yellow Pages won't help). There's also a lot to be said for choosing an espresso machine that has an online track record because you'll be able to ask other owners for advice. That said, I didn't and was one of the early buyers of La Valentina, which has a smaller following than most of the machines you noted. It's worked out well because the machine is quite reliable and I don't mind DIY repairs even if something did occur.
signguy wrote:Grinder HUH... well I have thought about that but it has always been something I thought I'd get in the future. My current grinder for making coffee is a Capresso, probably cost about $50. I'm betting that is a no no for serious espresso.
That's funny. You've already gotten three reminders about the grinder. And yes, it is really that important. I've thoroughly tested a half-dozen different grinders and tried another half-dozen at barista jams. I'll upgrade my grinder (Mazzer Mini) long before thinking about upgrading the espresso machine. You can read my past laments in Overextracted. The current frontrunner is the Mazzer Kony, which costs about as much as what you plan on spending on the espresso machine alone. Yes, I think it's worth it.
The grinder is the MAIN piece of the puzzle. Here's my recent experience that shows the difference.
I had a Breville espresso machine I got at a yard sale for a song. I wasn't impressed, so I moved up to Silvia. In that move up, I acquired a Gaggia MDF grinder. Works well, and when I tried some grounds from it in the Breville, the Breville produced a drinkable, if not noteworthy, cup.
Now in my latest move, I acquired an Alex and a Mazzer Super Jolly grinder. The grinder came in before the espresso machine, so I tried some cups on my Silvia from grounds on the SJ. Honestly, if I hadn't already ordered the Alex I would have been questioning my decision. The cup produced was just so superior.
So yes, the grinder is the most important piece of the puzzle, and it shows in the cup where it counts.
My favorite at this point, after reading the review by Chris Tracy is the Bricoletta. I'm impressed with its ability to produce excellent espresso & I feel I can learn how to manage the machine. Its style is also knock out. As for how I'll use the machine, I drink espresso, my wife drinks cappuccino. I'd say a large group of drinkers for us would be 8-12, seldom & 4-6 more often.
lparsons21 wrote:The grinder is the MAIN piece of the puzzle. Here's my recent experience that shows the difference.
I had a Breville espresso machine I got at a yard sale for a song. I wasn't impressed, so I moved up to Silvia. In that move up, I acquired a Gaggia MDF grinder. Works well, and when I tried some grounds from it in the Breville, the Breville produced a drinkable, if not noteworthy, cup.
Now in my latest move, I acquired an Alex and a Mazzer Super Jolly grinder. The grinder came in before the espresso machine, so I tried some cups on my Silvia from grounds on the SJ. Honestly, if I hadn't already ordered the Alex I would have been questioning my decision. The cup produced was just so superior.
So yes, the grinder is the most important piece of the puzzle, and it shows in the cup where it counts.
Great points!! OK so I need a grinder also. My budget is $1500 with a bit of wiggle room. Can I get a grinder that will do my nice machine justice for ...say $300?
signguy wrote:My favorite at this point, after reading the review by Chris Tracy is the Bricoletta. I'm impressed with its ability to produce excellent espresso & I feel I can learn how to manage the machine. Its style is also knock out. As for how I'll use the machine, I drink espresso, my wife drinks cappuccino. I'd say a large group of drinkers for us would be 8-12, seldom & 4-6 more often.
Note that all the Bricolettas require a 20-amp electrical service line. Not a big deal for many, but it is something you need to know.
BTW, when you start looking at E61/HX machines, operationally and performance wise, they will all be close. It really gets down to looks, features, rotary vs vibe pump for instance. Or at least that was my conclusion after racking my brain and straining my eyeballs reading all the reviews.
whaever machine you get, it will be wholly worthless without a matching grinder and tamper
fortunately, the correct sized tamper will be $20-$40
unfortunately, the correct grinder will be $200-$500
i know it sounds stupid hearing "you need a quality grinder" when you can get one for $50 or just buy preground beans
i believed that too, and went through 10lbs of beans thinking i wasted $550 on an espresso machine. then i got a mazzer, and it was a like i finally owned a real espresso machine.
in terms you might be able to understand now:
if you just 'bump' a stepless grinder half a degree or so, you won't see any perceptible difference in the grind. if you touch the grinds, it'll feel exactly the same. but put it in a portafilter and pull a shot-- and you can be looking at a 2-5 second difference in shot timing. you can only compensate so much with dosing / tamping , and its never enough.
buying an espresso machine and not getting a good grinder is like buying a sports car and replacing the engine with one from a lawnmower. sure it'll kind of work-- but it won't really work well, and all you're going to do is regret your purchase and save up for a new engine.
lparsons21 wrote:Note that all the Bricolettas require a 20-amp electrical service line. Not a big deal for many, but it is something you need to know.
BTW, when you start looking at E61/HX machines, operationally and performance wise, they will all be close. It really gets down to looks, features, rotary vs vibe pump for instance. Or at least that was my conclusion after racking my brain and straining my eyeballs reading all the reviews.
I'm in the process of renovating my kitchen so direct plumbing, 20amp elec. direct drain are all aspects that will not be a problem. I'm off to bed for the night. This is a great forum. I'll stop in tomorrow. John
Welcome to the forum, John, and good luck with your decision! There are three or fours of us who bought new machines in the range that you are looking at just this past week. I think the total was three Izzo Alex and one Quickmill Vetrano, all from Chris Coffee. I know that at least two of us bought a Macap M4 stepless grinder along with the machine. I have a la San Marco LSM 90 commercial grinder that I picked up a couple of years ago, so I didn't buy a new grinder (although the shiny Macap looks great!). Most vendors will give you a break on the grinder if you purchase it with you machine.
You can get close to your budget with the Vetrano and the Macap from Chris. The Alex has the added advantage of running off of an internal reservoir in addition to being plumbed in. I've been known to drag my Millenium to relatives house for the holidays, so i bought an Alex so that I still had that option.
You also mentioned cup height, and Lloyd gave you one option for fitting a taller cup under the PF on the Alex. Another option is to buy a bottomless PF with the machine. You should have plenty of room for a normal coffee cup, and the bottomless PF is a great learning tool while you are fine tuning your barista skills. It is also just fun to watch the extraction!
Don't forget the extras that you will want or need. Buy a good tamper right off the bat if you don't have one. You may also need a group brush, detergent, etc. and even a shiny new steam pitcher!
You could add one more to consider since you seem to emphasize aesthetics, Valentina Levetta. You can have 1st-line convert it to direct-plumb. I recently upgraded from Silvia to this and love it so far. The parts and overall build quality is impressive.
One other thing, with that budget I'd get a grinder in the neighborhood of a Mazzer Mini or Macap.
John, the advice you're getting is rock solid. I'll offer my last two cents for the night...
Buying a Bricoletta, for example, and compromising on the grinder is like buying a new Porsche and then mounting wooden wagon wheels. Sure, it will certainly drive, but far from its true potential. By your own account the Bricoletta is a front runner and it indeed has a good track record with the HB membership (e.g., malachi / Chris Tacy, mike mcKoffee). If you skip to the conclusions of the E61 class machines reviewed on the site, you'll see that they fare closely on espresso performance and differentiate themselves on the rest of the scores. However, that isn't to say they are "carbon copies". Each espresso machine requires that you adapt your technique slightly to maximize its results.
The Buyer's Guides / Pro's Perspective and the advice of the online communities will save you weeks of frustration. Although the budget issues may loom, there is some comfort in knowing that top-end espresso equipment is much more affordable than other interests that your friends may enjoy. For example, my buddy the audiophile spent more on speaker cables than I've ever spent on espresso equipment! I was not able to appreciate the difference, but I'm certain any coffee drinker will immediately taste the difference between your home espresso and practically any cafe, given a few weeks' practice.
Hi, John- welcome to the forum (and yet, another opinion!). Everybody is telling you pretty much the same thing, so just so it sinks in.. It's true- the grinder is the biggest factor, but the machine you brew with has certain features (depending on what you buy, of course) that can make or break your shot if you're not paying attention to what you're doing (as well as fresh beans, etc...). I'm sure you've read enough about the process at the level you're planning to invest, but do not skimp on the grinder for sure. If you spend a bit less on one of the HX machines, for example, then you will be flushing more water (big deal, plenty of people do it.. and water's cheap). I've owned a Brewtus for almost 2 yrs now, and love it (even electroplated it's chrome exterior in copper and gold because like you, I like stuff in my house to match it's surroundings). I've also owned a Rocky for about the last 6 yrs, and although it has been very consistent and reliable (other than the burrs, which I've just replaced) I realize that I'm missing something in the flavor of my drinks (~98% triple ristretto's via naked portafilter). Now it's taken me 5+ yrs to come to that conclusion (probably on a geologic timescale for most people on this and the CG forums), but I know that I'm due for a serious upgrade there. Most of this comes from home roasting beans that I've bought through a number of sources, but from about 6 or 7 different countries (and I have a small green bean stash by most estimations)... Point is, I'm about to spend $1300 on a new grinder (probably the Mazzer Kony), but a regular Mazzer Mini (even with doser) @ $400 would probably work almost as well- there's got to be something to conical burrs to justify that kind of money. I've waited that long, so the money is available, and my tastebuds don't want to wait any longer.
signguy wrote:Hi all, this is my first post. It is finally time to replace my Krups (purchased at a tag sale for $7.00) for a real machine. ........Do I really need a dual boiler? Are all the single boiler machines in this list pretty equal? Oh, & one more consideration, the cup height that will fit under the filter basket, I'd like to be able to use a standard coffee cup for multi shot espressos. Thanks in advance for advice & input.
Hello John ("Signguy") and welcome to the internet side of specialty coffee! If I can take your "forum name" literally, I'll guess that you're in design and/or sales in the commercial sign biz. Me too. (Matthews Bronze; we're a mfg. member/vendor of SEGD)
Like you, I started by pulling a 20 year old Krups machine out of the closet and trying to make a cappuccino! Three months later I found myself having gone from a Gaggia Super Auto (2 wks of wasted time), to an Expobar Pulser Office (great value, good HX machine), and then to the dual boiler La Spaz S1. At the outset with the Expobar, I suffered and lost two weeks wasting time trying to use a cheap grinder. As soon as my vendor kicked me the proper brain lobe that controls "grinder acquisitions", I bought a Gaggia MDF (a reasonable minimum level espresso grinder...I could'a done better.). When I upgraded from the Expobar, I bought the S1 and a stepless doser Macap M4. It's been a year, we're finally in our new home, and I'm building an espresso bar in the garage. (I lost out for kitchen space to a higher bidder....my wife!) Here in SoCal we usually don't get basements, so the garage is many times the "converted space!")
I read the '05 review by Chris Tacy on the Fiorenzato Bricoletta. It appears to be a swell machine, and as always, Chris has incredible clarity when he shares his coffee thoughts. I especially agree with him on the subject of barista skills over machine obsession. Although I bought the S1 while obsessing on the concept of dual boiler vs HX, I've since calmed down and no longer believe that to be the breaking point in picking home equipment. Although, in the commercial area, I'm convinced that for repeatability, reliability and serviceability...the LM and Synesso, which are dual boilers, are "best buys." For me, it's all about removing the variables in a commercial food environment.
Here's the S1 at the interum apartment........ from a design standpoint, the S1 is certainly more commercial looking, as opposed to traditional metal-ornate.
As you can see, my most recent home espresso purchase was the S1 and the Macap M4, stepless doser. For me, it worked, but not from the get-go. As was stated, while I thought I would be making great coffee drinks as soon as I plumbed everything in and situated my stuff.......the learning curve, through experimentation with both my espresso equipment AND my roasting equipment, took another 6 months. I'm still learning. (some errors in judgement had me going in wrong directions, making crappy extractions, for over a month!!!) When the light bulb went back on.....I fully realized, to my very soul, that before the espresso machine, even before the grinder, you HAVE TO HAVE REALLY FRESH COFFEE. Best analogy is taking that perennial Porsche out for a Sunday drive and filling the tank with stale gasoline. You may do what I did and start buying green coffee and roasting at home. It's ANOTHER fascinating and rewarding element to home-based espresso!
It continues to be my opinion that once you cross over into the prosumer HX espresso machine group at about $800-$1,000, everything beyond that is the acquisition of "extras".........ie, plumbed in water and drain, rotary pump for quiet operation, AM-FM radio, air conditioning and white side walls. (well, you get the idea, right?) It's been my observation that at this point, the more you spend, generally, the more conveniences and reduction of variables you gain. Your budget may not tolerate more than $1500? I got the S1 and Macap from Chriscoffee for a little over $2k. If you can sell off the kid's bikes, then do it!
Summary opinion here......... don't just look at espresso machines..... remember that there are essential accessories if you plan on optimizing your investment. Of course, the grinder (right now a Mazzer or Macap) will be your biggest, an RB or equivalent Tamper (I like the solid stainless or wood-handled stainless flat face), a good electronic gram scale, PF pressure gage if the espresso machine doesn't have one on-board, and other stuff I'm easily forgetting. It starts with the espresso machine, but doesn't end there! I believe that, like any other adult-hobby, home espresso can easily expand into a $5,000 investment; not all of it being just the espresso machine! Be prepared, and remember, you can always sell and upgrade the espresso machines. I've yet to sell my grinders, and prefer the concept of dedicated grinders for favorite-regular blends.
And about the cup height........I can get a large 8oz coffee cup under the PF of the S1. Worst case with most machines, you remove the drip tray!
I agree with about all the feedback you've been given. One point not made is you'll likely be looking at whatever machine you decide on for quite some time. Since at this price point we're talking many very excellent machines and since you've indicated you really like the Bricoletta retro garbage can look that's the way to go IMO.
AND of course wiggle your wiggle room up a hair from $1500 and get a good grinder!!! If were me I'd likely go a MC4 stepless since 1st-Line offers $100 off with machine. That make it around $1650 for the pair. (unless you can dicker Jim down further)
And get a good tamper, back flush blank and back flush detergent.
Since the garbage can doesn't have a brew pressure gauge if you don't have or have access to a PF mounted gauge get one of those too to dial in brew pressure. (Or ask to borrow someone's on the forum.)
Also since coming from an Krup's espresso machine wannabe I'd suggest getting a nekkid PF to help dial in your shot technique on a real machine. Don't worry about having an extra PF or two laying around, you'll want you dedicated for the back flush blank so it gets used regularly, ie water only back flush after every shot session be it one shot or a dozen and weekly or so detergent back flush.
FWIW the Bric' has no problem pulling shots directly into good sized cups for Americano etc.
With the cries "Get a good grinder!" reaching a fever pitch, I hasten to add that the $199 Cunill Tranquilo is frequently recommended as equivalent in terms of grind quality to the Mazzer Mini (it does however lack the Mazzer's refinements). That said, I'm with Mike - it's a long-term purchase and budget accordingly. This would be a lot easier, I suppose, if signguy hadn't picked a $1500 price point. That's roughly the cusp of the transition price point between the popular Silvia/Rocky pair and the usual upgrade, an HX/Mazzer/Macap pair.
Similar to what all of these guys have said and after doing a lot of reading here and a few other locations, I took the plunge and bought the Vivaldi II and a Macap M4 stepless. This was my one big upgrade from a generation 1 Francis Francis X1.
I thought I was making some decent drinks with my X1 until now... I had to wait a day to finish plumbing in the Vivaldi II, so my x1 had one more morning of service before being shipped off to the office. The difference of freshly ground coffee in that machine was fantastic to say the least.
Now after nearly three days and 3/4of a lb of beans later, I am making some drinks that I am very proud of. Still got some tinkering to do to perfect my shots, as evidenced by some of the results I am seeing in with my bottomless portafilter. My wife has made me buy some Decaf for the after 6pm testing so I can actually get some sleep. Hopefully my daughter will be bringing me some Intelligentsia coffee when she comes down for the holidays.
Anyway take heed to a good majority of the folks here and you can't go wrong.
