Upgrading from Krups to direct plumb machine with a rotary pump - Page 2

[signguy]

I'm new to all this so I've got to ask. I called a supplier & placed an order for an espresso machine, a grinder, & a tamper, gave them my credit card #, and thought the deal was done. I got a call about 15min later telling me that because the equipment I was purchasing was commercial, it could not be returned.
Is that standard practice to buy expensive espresso gear on the internet & not be able to return it if you decide after holding it in your hand that it is not what you expected from just viewing a rather small picture? Now I agree, that if the stuff was used to make espresso or grind beans, it couldn't be sold as new & the seller would have to charge a sizeable fee, but to request a fax number so that a form could be sent stating that the goods are non-returnable, even if they have never been used seems like a rather cold way of doing business. Aside from a special order item, I can't see that as a positive business practice. I bought my equipment elsewhere.

[HB]

Vendors generally have some "buyer's remorse" policy for the sort of espresso equipment we're discussing, i.e., one group machines and grinders. Accessories like tampers typically are not refundable and parts are rarely if ever refundable.

[lparsons21]

But some do classify at least part of the equipment they sell as 'commercial', even when it isn't certified nor really suitable. Then they disclaimer that since it is 'commercial' the sale is final. The ones I have seen have been pretty clear about it, not hidden at all.

[jesawdy]

Signguy-

Without naming vendors, can you share with us the machine you chose? I know that I have noted on a few sites that *some* machines are list as not returnable because they are being sold at a ridiculously low price. I would revisit the site in question and see what their return policy is and whether there was a unique circumstance for the machine you picked.

[signguy]

Vendors generally have some "buyer's remorse" policy for the sort of espresso equipment we're discussing, i.e., one group machines and grinders. Accessories like tampers typically are not refundable and parts are rarely if ever refundable.

I'm talking about the whole ball of wax here, they told me nothing was returnable. Anyway... that's past history. I'll have my equipment (from another vendor)
Tues. or Wed. I'm very excited... I'll post my "espresso stumbling" as it happens. Is there a good book that describes in detail the step by step process of beans, grinding, tamping etc?

[signguy]

Signguy-

Without naming vendors, can you share with us the machine you chose? I know that I have noted on a few sites that *some* machines are list as not returnable because they are being sold at a ridiculously low price. I would revisit the site in question and see what their return policy is and whether there was a unique circumstance for the machine you picked.

Jeff, I'd rather not name the machine because all you savvy espresso people would know in an instant what site it was. I will say that it was not a special rock bottom close-out deal. It was a standard machine out of their line, with a mazzer mini grinder. My intention is not to badmouth anybody just to say WHEW, I'm in business & if I told people "nonreturnable" I'd have fewer customers.

[HB]

Is there a good book that describes in detail the step by step process of beans, grinding, tamping etc?

Depending on the particular machine you bought, there's machine-specific how-to information in this site's Buyer's Guides and CoffeeGeek's Detailed Reviews. Apart from that, my must-read list includes:

• Home Barista's Guide to Espresso
• Banish Uneven Extractions with the WDT
• Perfecting the Naked Extraction

For HX espresso machine owners, add:

• How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs

These and other noteworthy articles on the web are listed on the Resources page. The FAQs and Favorites round out my recommended reading. You may wish to start a "Getting to know XXX" thread similar to Getting to know the Izzo Alex. Jon posted videos of his entire routine and asked for feedback. I was surprised how many little things that were picked up in the video that would have gone undetected if we relied on personal accounts.

[alsterlingcafe]

I'm new to all this so I've got to ask. I called a supplier & placed an order for an espresso machine, a grinder, & a tamper, gave them my credit card #, and thought the deal was done. I got a call about 15min later telling me that because the equipment I was purchasing was commercial, it could not be returned.......Is that standard practice to buy expensive espresso gear on the internet & not be able to return it if you decide after holding it in your hand that it is not what you expected from just viewing a rather small picture?

Two comments...........first, and I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek; since when is anything in the business world "absolute standard operating procedure?"
I'm guessing that most of us, including you, would admit that with all the vendors out there, nearly everything is negotiable. When a vendor declares my purchase "One-Way", I get very, very suspicious, and usually ask WHY? Remember that beyond what any retailer or wholesaler likes to think they can get away with, there may be inter or intra-state consumer protections. But why deal with someone who makes you anticipate grief and litigation? Evidently, you went to another vendor?

Secondly, are you aware that "commercial" equipment in the eyes of county health and fire inspectors usually means that the equipment is both NSF and UL/CSA certified. If not, then it's usually called "commercial-level/like" or "commercial-quality." We need commercial equipment when we serve the public. And in Orange County, CA, even if you give away the food product you're still expected to meet the county codes. Some areas in the US are more relaxed than others.

Since your vendor declared the espresso machine "commercial", and you were just under the $2k range when you first spoke, I'm going to have to guess that it's the La Spaziale S1, and Chris finally got in the machines with their NSF certs. Frankly, if you did get the Vivaldi II, then I wouldn't worry. I've not met any owner that returned his machine! Other than the La Spaz, I just don't know of any true commercial machine below the $2k price point? Anyone?

Regardless of what you bought, I'm sure you'll enjoy the heck out of it, and will have something to keep you very occupied this holiday season. I'll hang around for when you spill the beans. Dan's input on training was, of course, spot on. Have you searched out another CG member in your area that has a few years under his or her belt? In Ham Radio that personal coach used to be called an "Elmer." That alone could save you months of stumbling!

Best, Al

[HB]

Since your vendor declared the espresso machine "commercial", and you were just under the $2k range when you first spoke, I'm going to have to guess that it's the La Spaziale S1, and Chris finally got in the machines with their NSF certs.

The label "commercial" is tossed about liberally as a marketing term with the implication than it means heavy-duty, serious, macho, etc. Rarely does it mean certification on e-commerce sites. From what I've seen, they'll plainly say UL / ETL certified if indeed it is.

[signguy]

Thanks to all for all the support & input. I ended up spending just under 2k which was a bit over my budget, but I said at the start that I had wiggle room. I got a drain kit for my drip tray & a softener system for my city water. Along with a tamper that clicks at 30lbs.... al right, al right, you grizzled old Baristas, laugh all you want, I'm looking for the fast track to decent espresso.

[HB]

I'm not laughing, really:



But be forewarned that the tamp is the easiest skill to master. Diagnosing an extraction flaw, managing brew temperature, and getting the dose / distribution right are much harder. The good news is that you should exceed your current setup in short order. Then begins the life-long challenge of keeping your skills in pace with your expectations...

[signguy]

I'm not laughing, really:

image

But be forewarned that the tamp is the easiest skill to master. Diagnosing an extraction flaw, managing brew temperature, and getting the dose / distribution right are much harder. The good news is that you should exceed your current setup in short order. Then begins the life-long challenge of keeping your skills in pace with your expectations...

My expectations are very high & my wife tells me that I have an obsessive personality. I look forward to working hard at learning the skills.

[signguy]

Thanks to all for all the support & input. I ended up spending just under 2k which was a bit over my budget, but I said at the start that I had wiggle room. I got a drain kit for my drip tray & a softener system for my city water. Along with a tamper that clicks at 30lbs.... al right, al right, you grizzled old Baristas, laugh all you want, I'm looking for the fast track to decent espresso.

I forgot, also a mazzer mini... seems like a nice piece of equipment.

[alsterlingcafe]

The label "commercial" is tossed about liberally as a marketing term with the implication than it means heavy-duty, serious, macho, etc. Rarely does it mean certification on e-commerce sites. From what I've seen, they'll plainly say UL / ETL certified if indeed it is.

Well Dan, as I mentioned, the only machine that I know of in the prosumer ranks that actually had an NSF cert in the offing was the S1. I noticed early on that WLL would talk about using one of their Expobars in a small bagel shop, but then would add the disclaimer about checking local regulations, etc. I spoke to Chris earlier this year when I bought mine and he did say that the paperwork was still "pending", but definitely just over the horizon.......so to speak. I suppose, out of curiosity, I should call to see if those certs have come about, and if the new machines are shipping with their unique numbers......not that I have any intentions of buying another one, but it would have been nice to know I could serve free hotdogs and espresso at the local used car lot or cater a bar-mitzvah in Newport Beach and not get cited by the Orange County Health Inspector and then dragged away by the Sheriff!!! (big smile)

Best, Al

[signguy]

Hey!!! just to put a happy final twist on my rant about returning equipment. I filled out an exit poll last night while leaving the site that refused returns. Told them of my surprise & disappointment. I got a nice email this morning stating that although that is basically the rule, its not cast in stone & that talking to the correct person could have saved the deal. I feel much better about them now & most likely will shop there if they have something I want. Happy ending

[alsterlingcafe]

Well, I'm still curious about the vendor, although I thought I knew who it was.....now I'm not so sure? You never responded about the sign industry connection. You're probably so hyped about the new espresso stuff and all.....it's understandable. After things calm down, I'd surely like to hear a review on your new equipment. Don't you just love those "after the fact" retractions of price and service. As in, "Well, WE could have met THAT price!" ....or.... "Sure, even though we say no returns, had you really pushed us we could've bent the rules." I've never been one to barter very well, and appreciate when vendors just come out with their best hit up front. Although, that's not gonna' happen too often.

Best, Al

[signguy]

Well, I'm still curious about the vendor, although I thought I knew who it was.....now I'm not so sure? You never responded about the sign industry connection. You're probably so hyped about the new espresso stuff and all.....it's understandable. After things calm down, I'd surely like to hear a review on your new equipment. Don't you just love those "after the fact" retractions of price and service. As in, "Well, WE could have met THAT price!" ....or.... "Sure, even though we say no returns, had you really pushed us we could've bent the rules." I've never been one to barter very well, and appreciate when vendors just come out with their best hit up front. Although, that's not gonna' happen too often.

Best, Al

Hi Al, You are correct, I've been busy catching up on work. That's what happens when you spend 30+ hrs in a weeks time doing research on espresso stuff.
I'm very familiar with Matthews Bronze, definitely one of the elite founderies. When my stuff comes in, tomorrow, I'll post all the news.

Best, John

[alsterlingcafe]

John...good deal, and I too remember how "lost in space" I was for the first couple weeks when I got all my stuff into the kitchen! Please send me a phone number if you care, and I'll give you a call. I'm the Western US Mngr. for the Architectural Group. Anne-Marie, who lives in N.Smithfield, RI, is our manager in your neck of the woods. It's sorta' nice knowing there's another obsessive-compulsive specialty coffee-sign guy out there..... I'm not alone!!! (If I can be so bold as to presume.)

I've been working on my espresso videos these past couple months....in between sweatingly hard work for our company, I might add!!!! You might want to sneak a peek? We have family from Brasil, wife's side, and I've always had some coffee contacts back home, which I'm now really enjoying!

---------My Espresso Videos from Brasil-------

Espresso Cafe Santo Grao, Sao Paulo, Brasil
Espresso Cafe Suplicy, Sao Paulo, Brasil
Cupping at a coffee cooperative in Sul de Minas, Minas Gerais, Brasil
Espresso Machine: La Spaziale S1 at home

Best, Al