Upgrade to Versalab M3 grinder? - Page 2

[JonR10]

Since price is an issue here, perhaps you should throw the following into the equation: I noticed that I'm able to get on average 18 double shots out of 1lb of beans. I am not counting grinder calibration shots. It is ~ 30% more shots than I get from the Mini. With the Mini, I dose and level using Schomer or Stockfleth which is wasteful but necessary. I end up shaving off about 4-6 grams of coffee on each shot. With the M3, there is no waste. I grind exactly 16 grams for a 16 grams shot, tap the basket a few times, tamp & pull the shot. I do not shave off any excess because there is none.

While this may be valid - would it also be worthwhile to place a dollar value on the coffee one may save?

Some folks may not waste as much coffee using a Mazzer (I don't). Lately, I have been working with less coffee in the basket and dosing by volume when loading the grinder. I also did the "electrical tape mod" so my doser sweeps quite clean. My waste is probably down to 2-3 grams per day (on 3-6 double shots). This improvement is also partially due to the fact that I'm currently running 2 grinders and don't have to recalibrate before/after decaf shots. My LaPavoni PGC is serving as my decaf grinder.

Most of my coffee costs $5 - $6 per pound roasted. But let's say it's $10/lb so I can include the times when I purchase roasted beans. IIRC a pound of beans is 448g so that's 2.2 pennies per gram. Given my estimated rate of waste my grinder(s) cost ~7 extra pennies per day compared to the M3.

At that rate* it would take an estimated 8871 days or 24+ years to make up the difference between the cost of an M3 and the cost of my Mazzer + the PGC (both new). Even if I had 5 times the waste from dosing we're still talking almost 5 years of heavy daily use...

*Of course that doesn't account for the sink shots that MIGHT be lost switching to and from decaf (for a spouse/SO), and it also doesn't account for the cost difference in maintenance and replacement parts. With no knowledge of M3 parts costs and reliability I would conservatively estimate that the overall reliability pales when compared with the Mazzer and parts cost would likely be higher.

In fairness, the maintenance costs may be equalized by the PGC's brittle parts: If I broke it and it wouldn't run anymore I would just replace it for $129 rather than trying to work on it.

[HB]

Thanks for the comments and votes, it made my decision easier: I'm putting the money into my kids' college fund instead.

John Bicht loaned us a M3 grinder for EspressoFest and I had a couple days to play with it before sending it back yesterday. As Abe and others reported, the evenness of the distribution is a barista's dream. The quality of the extractions were better than my best WDT. Abe put it to good use during EspressoFest; his routine included the use of a grams scale, Macap auto-tamper, Expobar Bretwus, and the M3 grinder. It is no exaggeration to say that he pulled some of the best espressos I sampled during the SCAA conference, including my brief stint as USBC judge.

But confirmation of all the good things said about the M3 grinder didn't change my mind about upgrading. There's no doubt it's in an entirely different class than the Mazzer Minis of the world. For example, comparing the M3's build quality to the Mazzer Mini is like comparing the Mazzer's to the Solis Maestro. The tolerances were so tight in its assembly that the Allen screws seemed almost unnecessary. However, the slow speed of the grind and the well-documented ergonomic shortcomings for such a premium-priced grinder bothered me. For now, I continue to ignore the Siren's Song.

[another_jim]

My brief run in with the MXK, and the reports about the Compak conical make me think that some aspects of my (and others') judgment of the M3's ergonomics was premature. It does have impossible ergonomics for pro use, and is marginal for home use, that much remains true. However, it is not at all an easy thing to fix. 300rpm conical grinders will be slow. A large grindstone can get grindspeed up to an acceptable range, but the slow production of grinds tends to block the chute on the conventional commercial layout with a sealed, horizontal grind chamber, and an exit tunnel to the doser or whatever doserless arrangement is used.

I now have a feeling that John's basic exit design, a straight down funnel, will stand the test of time. One can see this used with higher throughput, beefier burrs, a notched belt drive, a beefier motor, and a better arrangement for handling the grounds at the bottom of the funnel, in a successful commercial design. People are experimenting with vertically mounted burrs; but it remains to be seen if the grounds will clear from the top of the wheel at 300 rpm.

In any case, the M3 has influenced my roasting and choice of coffees to brighter, more complex beans at lighter roasts, so there's really no return for me.

BTW, John was right about 300 rpm being better than 500 rpm; trouble is that really makes it a "patience is a virtue" grinder.

From the point of view of us amateurs; I'm hoping that the superior cup quality will prompt a new generation of small commercial conicals that incorporate and improve on the design.

[timo888]

There's a problem with a stand like that [...] the grinds overtop the basket in a mound, so sliding out the PF after grinding would spill the grinds [...] The PF, basket, or cup has to removed downward, not sideways. So an elegant stand would require a bit of ingenuity, not just a dab hand with machine tools.

This is an old thread, but I like the idea of the Versalab grinder very much, and want to make it a little more Athenian and a bit less Spartan. Your indulgence, please

Telescoping cylinders. Imagine a short hollow cylinder made of brass (or heavy clear acrylic if you prefer). Perhaps it's sitting on a flat base:


_| |_

Now imagine another cylinder which fits snugly inside the first one, and slides like a telescope.

The second smaller cylinder has a series of interchangeable female-threaded caps (each could screw onto the cylinder which is male-threaded at the top) and each cap has a center hole whose diameter is a couple mm smaller than the portafilter size it's designed to accommodate (the basket lip catches).

Procedure:
Lower the telescope by pressing down on the inner cylinder
Drop in a basket
Slide under the grinder.
Raise the telescope by gripping the cap, so the basket fits as snugly as desired against the exit funnel
Grind
Lower the telescope
Slide out from beneath the grinder

To make it easy to remove the basket, the cap on the inner brass cylinder has shallow depressions, abutting the basket hole, diametrically opposed so that thumb and middle finger can easily grasp the lip of the basket, which is slightly more exposed at those locations. The shallow channels will look like the depressions in an ash tray to hold a cigarette. Just deep enough to give the palps of the finger and thumb a purchase on the lip of the basket so you don't have to use fingernails to lift it out.

Regards
Timo

P.S. Versalab could sell the basket-stand as an add-on and you could order your stand with the size cap(s) you needed, ranging from the tiny Peppina-size up to the large Enrico of Italy 68mm.

P.P.S. The design accommodates single baskets, double-baskets, triple-baskets.

P.P.P.S. You could expand upon the design so that there are three or four such cylinders in succession or six in a six-shooter revolver-type ring sitting on a carousel:

__|1|__|2|__|3|__|4|__

should you ever want to fill a number of baskets in succession.

P.P.P.P.S. Future games of Clue: Colonel Mustard in the Cupping Room with the Versalab Carousel.

[another_jim]

That'll work if you confine yourself to baskets. Apparently, the space between the base and funnel is too small to accommodate the largest spouted PFs

[timo888]

That'll work if you confine yourself to baskets. Apparently, the space between the base and funnel is too small to accommodate the largest spouted PFs

I get much more even tamps when the filter basket is sitting outside the PF, flat on the countertop.

Regards
Timo

[Psyd]

I get much more even tamps when the filter basket is sitting outside the PF, flat on the countertop.

...and the pucks arent disturbed when they 'snap' into place?

[timo888]

No, the pucks aren't disturbed when the baskets snap into place. The Cremina baskets snap gently into place. The Peppina baskets don't have the snap feature but drop into place.
Regards
Timo

[Psyd]

No, the pucks aren't disturbed when the baskets snap into place. The Cremina baskets snap gently into place. The Peppina baskets don't have the snap feature but drop into place.

HHMmmmm.... I'm thinking the same might be true if I were to remove the retaining rings in my PF's. It makes it a bit tricky, knocking the pucks out afterwards, though, no?

[cannonfodder]

I use LM ridgeless baskets. The retaining spring holds the basket into place via friction. There is no ridge for the spring to pop over, so it slides in nice and smooth. But I still tamp with the basket in the PF.

[Gatewood]

HHMmmmm.... I'm thinking the same might be true if I were to remove the retaining rings in my PF's. It makes it a bit tricky, knocking the pucks out afterwards, though, no?

No, not tricky. I use a Europiccola; no retaining rings. I've gotten pretty good at hitting the portafilter on one side on the knockbox bar and the puck slides out, leaving the basket in the portafilter. Takes a little doing at first, but has become second nature to me now. You just don't hit it and release. Hit and hold.

[Psyd]

Tried it today, and musta gotten a crack in the puck, or loosened it from the sides of basket or something. Channelled like crazy. I'll try taking the retaining spring from the stock Silvia PF and see if that works. Maybe this is the excuse I've been waiting for to get the ridgeless LM baskets. D'ya think I could I parlay that into a nekkid PF, too!?!

[laservet]

For now, I continue to ignore the Siren's Song.

I just succumbed, delivery in the Fall. I'm interested in their packer as well but have no way to plumb it or hook up an air tank until a kitchen remodel. Next step is either a GS3 or a single group Cyncra, still on the fence. Similar situation, the GS3 can be used immediately, Cyncra would need to wait for the remodel.

[pdx]

I'm interested in their packer as well but have no way to plumb it or hook up an air tank until a kitchen remodel.

You might think about ordering the packer now. I ordered one for a client in March & haven't heard anything about a build happening anytime soon.

the GS3 can be used immediately, Cyncra would need to wait for the remodel.

Depending on your counter layout this might not be a huge deal. I hit the hardware store on my way home from Synesso's factory & was pulling shots within 90 minutes of walking in the door. The countertop hole isn't perfect, but I have new counters going in soon.

The plumbing is a breeze. You could install filtration under your sink & plumb to that before getting the machine. Depending on how your dishwasher drain is plumbed the drain plumbing could be really simple as well. If the DW joins the drain above a garbage disposal you should think twice about draining your machine there. If the disposal isn't draining well the DW could pump waste water up the espresso drain line (yuk.)

Whatever machine you get I recommend plumbing it in.

If you go with the Synesso you should opt for the shorter (2.5") legs. This will allow the machine to fit under a standard (18") upper cab. clearance, leaving room to access ceramics on top. Even if you insulate the steam boiler you'll be "preheating" everything in the upper cabinet. I'm sure the GS3 will do the same.

You won't regret the Versalab grinder. I've been surprised how much better extractions are than with the Mini. I also notice a difference in brew temp for the blend I use (Stumptown Hairbender.)

[laservet]

Depending on your counter layout this might not be a huge deal. I hit the hardware store on my way home from Synesso's factory & was pulling shots within 90 minutes of walking in the door. The countertop hole isn't perfect, but I have new counters going in soon.

The plumbing is a breeze. You could install filtration under your sink & plumb to that before getting the machine. Depending on how your dishwasher drain is plumbed the drain plumbing could be really simple as well. If the DW joins the drain above a garbage disposal you should think twice about draining your machine there. If the disposal isn't draining well the DW could pump waste water up the espresso drain line (yuk.)

Whatever machine you get I recommend plumbing it in.

If you go with the Synesso you should opt for the shorter (2.5") legs. This will allow the machine to fit under a standard (18") upper cab. clearance, leaving room to access ceramics on top. Even if you insulate the steam boiler you'll be "preheating" everything in the upper cabinet. I'm sure the GS3 will do the same.

You won't regret the Versalab grinder. I've been surprised how much better extractions are than with the Mini. I also notice a difference in brew temp for the blend I use (Stumptown Hairbender.)

I will plumb it in. In my case the current limitation is electrical. I can't get either 220 or a dedicated 110 line to the only currently suitable spot. After the remodel I can get water, drain, and as many circuits as I want to the new espresso nook.

I can't wait for the grinder. Thanks for the info about the packer, I'll order mine now.

[HB]

Follow-on discussion split to Versalab Precision Packer...