Undrinkable espresso and not sure what to try next

[forgetcolor]

After more than two weeks and about 5 lbs of beans, I've somehow gotten myself to the point of undrinkable espresso. I started out with a new machine and grinder and was making the best capp/lattes I'd had, and was even enjoying the straight espresso a bit. However, as I practiced more and got timing/grind down, I realized I was seeing some channeling. This is discussed at length here:
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/channeling-and-distribution-frustration-t3193.html. I spent the next week or two working to minimize this, and it's over this period that my shots have gone from great in capp/lattes and drinkable straight, to not only making undrinkable shots, but even making bad lattes. The lattes leave a bad taste in my mouth, and some aren't even finishable.

I have read so much here and CG, and tried so many things that I'm not sure what to do next. First, the taste. I haven't drank straight shots since college (15 years ago), but my first few with the new setup were enjoyable. However, my unsophisticated palette reports to me that these shots are very bitter. This mostly manifests itself as a sharp taste on the front tip of the tongue, and the sides. Sometimes I get this taste at the mid-back top. It's enough to make me grimace and to impart this bad aftertaste to lattes.

As for channeling, I have been seeing less, although it varies. However, even on shots that show no/little evidence of channeling, I get the same taste. My side channeling issues seem to be mostly gone, but I still see occasional cracks, and occasional pencil-lead sized holes (anywhere from 1 to many).

Here is my latest workflow and then some notes on how I got there:

1. turn on machine (Gaggia Carezza), run some water, place PF in to warm up
2. grind with my M4 directly into PF with a yogurt cup insert
3. WDT with a needle stuck in a dowel until all clumps are broken up.
4. even out grounds with a slightly curved index finger, filling in gaps, going N/S, E/W
5. tamp with a convex lava tamp to 30 lbs
6. zero pressure polish
7. turn over PF to let loose grinds fall out
8. run machine again until light goes out, wait til it comes back on, and insert PF
9. run pump, aiming for about 1.75 - 2 oz in 25 sec. or so, but regardless, stopping when it blonds (or at least my best detection of such)
10. taste vile espresso

Previous alterations on this procedure:

dose: I have worked a lot with dose, although I don't have a scale, so it's all volume-based. I temporarily thought I had finally licked my channeling problems by fluffing as much as I could with a coarser grind and a full basket that got evened off with a chopstick (N/S,E/W to fill gaps), then a 30 lb tamp as above. But I was getting such bad tastes at this point that I did more experiments with dose once again (keeping all other things consistent) and ended up with what I described above (with a finer grind to compensate for the lower dose).

WDT: I've pretty much used the WDT since I learned it and not stopped

polish: I've tried variations on the polish while keeping all else the same. this includes pressured polish, light pressure polish, no pressure polish and no polish at all.i believe I see less channeling when I use either a no-pressure polish or no polish

I've tried cleaning the machine (which is only 2.5 weeks old) with Cleancaf a couple days ago. I did tons of rinses --- maybe 6-10 before trying a shot again. It didn't make a difference.

The last week or so is all with Black Cat decaf (occasional caf) roasted about 7 days ago now (so the age span was 2-7 days).
I've tried both caf and decaf Black Cat in case it was the specific beans. I opened another bag of decaf for same reason.
My shots have good crema that lasts. I've also tried stopping a bit early and going more for the ristretto range. I've tried dark stops with a coarser grind.

My suspicions at this point:

Coffee? Could it be the beans? I made up some press pot with the black cat this morning---the first time I've tried this since I got fresh beans or the grinder. I was hoping this would tell me if the beans were a problem. Unfortunately, it was inconclusive. I tasted a hint of those same bitter tastes as I did with the espresso but it was much weaker. I was actually rather unimpressed by the press pot coffee, so that is also curious. Perhaps my grind was too coarse (I went about 4 numbers on the Macap dial coarser than my espresso setting---which turned out to be as coarse as the grinder would go). I used these instructions: http://www.home-barista.com/forums/post9060.html#9060 I wish I could say whether the bad tastes started with my latest batch of Black Cat, but I can't specifically place it in time. It is roughly aligned, though.

Me. Obviously I'm the most likely culprit, still being a newbie at this. However, the downward trend to undrinkable makes me wonder if it still couldn't be something else.

Machine? Can't even say what the problem is there, but ...

Thanks if you've read this far. If you have any suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them. I'm thinking about trying some Counter Culture beans, although they're east coast (I'm midwest) so they're not as convenient as Intelligentsia which is 2 hours away.

[HB]

The last week or so is all with Black Cat decaf (occasional caf) roasted about 7 days ago now (so the age span was 2-7 days). I've tried both caf and decaf Black Cat in case it was the specific beans. I opened another bag of decaf for same reason.

Based on your description, I agree the coffee is your prime suspect.

There are several threads in the Coffees forum (example), but generally speaking, I find it challenging to pull a respectable espresso with decaffeinated coffee. The decafs go stale quickly, and when they do, it isn't gracefully. Long ago I lamented to Jim about the bitterness of a decaf blend I was trying; he suggested pulling it as a very tight ristretto, which helped quite a bit, but still fell short of its caffeinated sibling.

I no longer order decaffeinated coffees, except a rare occasion for my wife's friends, so my experience is a bit dated to the days I drank it more regularly. It's easier to diagnose problems with regular coffee (and honestly, don't be frustrated, even the best cafes struggle to pull a decent decaf).

[fatshadow]

This is my first post here thought I'd reply since I had a similiar trouble with bitter shots recently with my Gaggia espresso, I tried everything I could think of or read about to get a less bitter shot as I had pulled an occasional good shot in the past. What worked for me was to stop pulling any water before the shot, no cooling flush. I hadn't made any espresso shots for a couple of months and mostly made americanos before that and just recently decided to actually put some effort into making good espresso shots. I have a naked portafilter now and with the good info here on this site am making way better shots on average than before.

Terry

[TimEggers]

Most interesting. What exactly does your espresso taste like? Bitter? Harsh? I have too have been making terrible espresso...that was at least until yesterday. I use a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe (same as Gaggia Coffee and basically same internals as your Gaggia machine) and a Rocky doserless grinder.

My espresso got much better after using a long cooling flush (ran pump without porta until light went out, then for 5 more seconds, load and pull shot before light comes back on). I also used a dump start (let the first little bit of espresso go into the drip pan, than insert your glass) see if either of these helps.

Get a bottomless portafilter (or hack the bottom of yours off like I did) and a double basket. Try a cooling flush and then a dump start after a cooling flush, it may help you as well as it has me.

Good Luck and hang in there...from this side of the fence I can tell you its sooooo worth it!

[annp]

...I have read so much here and CG, and tried so many things that I'm not sure what to do next. My suspicions at this point:

Coffee? Could it be the beans?

Me. Obviously I'm the most likely culprit, still being a newbie at this. However, the downward trend to undrinkable makes me wonder if it still couldn't be something else.

Machine? Can't even say what the problem is there, but ...

I went and reread the your other thread - and here is my .02 - for what it is worth...

I think that you have an awful lot of unknowns and it is difficult to nail down the problem as being mere technique when you do not have actual data regarding dose weight and temp.

With that said, I also think you didn't pick the easiest beans either. I think the Black Cat makes pretty wonderful espresso, but I'd have not had much luck with it when I was first starting out, either.

Because I pick up from a local roaster here, I cannot think of an easier bean for you to start with mail order. I did have good luck with an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe when I was first learning - but that may have been a fluke.

I will point out something about your Macap that I've had to learn to work around. A lot of ground coffee seems to reside in the Macap. When I make an adjustment, I usually grind 4 or 5 more grams than I use - and throw that first 4 or 5 grams away. Thats even with a very attentive sweeping of the output tube with a bristle brush and a stop and start mid way. If I don't do this, I'm making shots that are totally lost - because I'm thinking I've corrected the grind - and I haven't quite yet. As for your Gaggia, I don't know enough how it works to make any suggestions with it - but what do other Gaggia owners do for temp control and cooling flushes?

Back to the gram thing... You've mentioned you don't have a gram scale. I'm not saying it will solve all your problems or you should totally depend on it, but IMHO it would help, a lot - and this is why.

You may have the best grind and distribute and your and tamp could be spot on - but if your dose varies wildly from shot to shot, you never have a baseline. And a gram may be all that it varies.

Don't laugh - I find a few 10ths of a gram makes a difference (I'm currently using the grind very fine, underdose, tamp lightly technique) between pulling something that chokes my machine - flows through all nasty/bubbly fast - and just right.

If you know exactly how much you are dosing, it becomes easier to track which variable to change to get this right.

You can get a perfectly useful digital gram scale on Ebay. I grind into dixie cups and dose the baskets (I have multiples, but thats approaching OCD you don't need to do that) before I stick em in the portafilter and tamp once they are snapped in. Thats just my way, you can pick your own, still integrating your yogurt cup funnel, once you've ground and weighed your dose.

Just a suggestion before you heave your Gaggia out the window!


Ann

[TimEggers]

I shared this in another discussion: (I use a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe and Rocky doserless grinder)

What I know:
empty basket=26g
post level the basket weighs 38g (so a 12g dose)
basket after tamping quite low, but level
espresso good (much better now that I run a long cool flush)

Here is what I have found to work (please critique me here guys!):

1.) Preheat machine for 1/2 hour or much more
2.) Grind directly into basket (removed from porta)
3.) Grind enough coffee to make basket (26g empty) weigh 38g (for 12g dose) or 40g (for 14g dose)
4.) WDT (at this point I really don't need a funnel, but what the hey) because the basket is only about 3/4 full
5.) Use needle to make coffee appear level in basket, tap to settle, try to make top surface level without tamping at this point
6.) Set tamper on top of coffee, check for vertical straightness (a sign of a level surface perhaps)
7.) If level I tamp to 35lbs keeping the tamper as vertical as possible (I am getting good at achieving level tamps with practice)
8.) No pressure polish (done slowly as not to jerk tamper across puck)
9.) Set basket into porta (not dropping it) I have retainer clip removed so the basket just sets in there, doesn't lock in
10.) Run pump to cool machine until light goes out, then for about 5 more seconds (without porta on of coarse)
11) lock porta and pull shot watching color and flow not the timer anymore

Results:

I have been getting very good shots finally. The cooling flush has really improved my espresso. If the espresso does come out in black drips I dump start those until I see striping. As long as I only collect striped flow the taste is quite good. I have found that a slightly coarser grind will eliminate the black start. I find myself not worrying about the time and watching what really matters, the extraction!

I like my system because I don't waste any coffee by brushing it off the basket, the espresso is really good, my extractions seem ok to good. Some doughnut flows, some barber poling, but not too much. I have had some very even beautiful extractions when I take my time and really prepare the puck before locking it.

Some weaknesses to my system are difficulty in getting a great dispersion every single time and a lot of steps. Actually with practice I have found that I get good dispersion and even pulls. I still have work to do, but that is fun to me and I look forward to getting more practice.

This is a slightly worse than typical shot for me (a video I have shared before) so my technique can't be too bad can it? Would I be better served trying something new?

In short the most important improvement I made was the cooling flush. That has eliminated all the harshness from my espresso and makes my espresso excellent (to me) heck even my home roasted beans taste wonderful...

A shot today:

[randomperson]

Let me first say that all of our tastes are obviously different, so what works for me might not work for you. But in my experience (with a Gaggia Classic) if you pull a cooling shot just before your real shot, your results will be too sour. Bitter you can live with, but sour is undrinkable.

So, first make sure your machine is warmed up. 15 minutes is all you need for the Gaggia, but make sure you do let it warm up for 15 minutes at the very least.

Now, try to do your flush (of about two ounces, no more) BEFORE you grind your coffee. By the time you have finished grinding, then distribute and tamp, your machine will have rewarmed itself. Now pull. The result should be better.

As for bitterness, IMHO Black Cat is a particularly bitter blend. Personally, I think it is roasted too dark. Try another bean and your problems could be over!

[forgetcolor]

First, let me thank everyone for your suggestions---I really appreciate it.

I tried a few different things tonight. Maybe too many, but a few were best changed at once.

1. I bought different beans. First, I ordered some Counter Culture Toscana and C02 Organic Mexican Decaf. Hopefully that will arrive this week. In the meantime, I did the next best thing I could do at the time, and went to Starbucks and got their decaf beans (from their stock, not the old premade bags sitting out). I know this isn't ideal, but it's different and I figured it's worth a shot.

2. I cleaned my grinder. Took it all apart and gave it a good cleaning. It wasn't that clean when I got it (as a demo).

3. While I had it apart, I swapped my burrs for a new set. I had a new set to install when I had a chance, and this was the best opportunity. It doesn't really help me determine if the burrs themselves make any difference in taste (sorry, Dan!) but I didn't want to have to take it all apart again. I have the old burrs (with a nick) so when my other problems are solved and my taste is more developed, I can swap them again and perform that test.

Ok, so clean grinder and different beans. I ran a few shots and dialed in the grind. I was getting crema so the beans can't be too old (although not as much as the black cat). I then did a shot with a start dump, and it tasted ok enough I made a latte with it and it wasn't bad. It wasn't wonderful, but not as bad as others.

I did the same setup without the start dump, and I definitely got more of that sharp taste on the edges of the tongue. I still taste it now. So that's interesting. At least with these beans and this setup, the start dump helped. I don't see the start dump listed on the espresso guide diagnostics section (well, not in terms of its effect on taste)---what's the expected taste affect of a start dump?

I did not yet vary cooling flush or anything else. I just did the basic turn it on, run the pump, insert the PF, wait 10-15m, grind into PF, insert, and pull the shot. I didn't want to try too many things at once.

So one question is whether the beans are making much of a difference here. I'm a bit wary of running the same black cat batch through the grinder (even though I have over a pound of it) in case it was the problem and cleaning the grinder helped. Although I will say that when the BC was good, it was much better than the S$.

I will look into picking up a scale. I agree that ruling out that variable would be good. I could also look into a naked PF. Although it all just keeps adding up! I'm hoping I can get by without it (as much as I admit it would be fun and useful to watch).

It's also interesting to hear others suggest that BC isn't necessarily an easy bean to work with. I thought I had read elsewhere that it was on the forgiving end, which is why I tried it.

As for decaf not working well, I'm kind of stuck there. I have been trying the occasional caf shot, and I can tolerate them. But I quit caf completely 5 years ago due to stomach problems. So, I've been trying to slowly reintroduce it b/c of my new espresso obsession, but we'll see. That's why I keep getting both kinds.

That's it for now. I think I'll stick with the start dumps for the moment, and will try with cooling flushes tomorrow and see what I get. After that I'll start trying some of your other suggestions. Thanks again!

[HB]

I don't see the start dump listed on the espresso guide diagnostics section (well, not in terms of its effect on taste)---what's the expected taste affect of a start dump?

It's mentioned several times as a workaround to various taste defects in Espresso Guide: Barista Technique (search on "dump").

I thought I had read elsewhere that it was on the forgiving end, which is why I tried it.

That's been my experience. It may be that Black Cat isn't your thing. Lately their Kid O's has garnered positive press and it's an easy going choice.

[Genesis]

Decaf is, in my experience, FAR more difficult to get a shot that doesn't have a lot of "bite" (in the form of bitterness) to it.

If you flush the temp down to try to get rid of it, you'll get sour before the bitterness goes away. You can improve it, but in the end you're probably going to be adding a touch of sugar to the decaf shots - at least I end up doing it.

One thing that I have found recently is that overworking the tamp will promote bitterness. And channeling can be from a too-coarse grind that you compensate with via overaggressive tamping just as easily as it can be from a bad tamp, dose or distribution.

I find S$ coffee undrinkable. Its radically over-roasted to my taste and produces shots that taste a lot like ash. Blech.

Try working ONLY the grind to get the flow you want. Dose so you can lock in and remove the PF without an imprint or disturbance on the puck, but just by a bit. You really want a scale - you can get an 0.1 gram scale from $10 from several places online with Google checkout and have it in a couple of days. Once you get the dose repeatability nailed you've removed one variable. Start where you get interference on lock-in, go down 1/2 gram at a time until it stops, then deduct one more half-gram. That's a good starting point; that's good for 1mm of headroom or thereabouts. Your machine may like a bit more headroom (perhaps another half-gram down); only one way to know.

Then work with a SINGLE 30lb tamp. No nutating motion, nothing else. One press, a zero-force (tamper weight only) polish, and that's it. Your first few shots will probably channel like crazy. That's ok - dial down the grind a bit finer, and try again. Remember - change ONE thing at a time.

Once you have a pour that doesn't look like its channeling and the pour time is within reason THEN go for temperature management.

The naked PF is IMHO worth the money. It tells you immediately what's going on in terms of the evenness of extraction. Without it you need to be far more skilled at decoding what's coming out of the spout, or just be good enough to get consistent shots without it. I use my naked all the time because, beyond the ability to see what's up, the PF is removed as part of the thermal stability equation for the most part, since the coffee never touches it and there's a LOT less brass there with the bottom cut off. Of course if you get "porn" then its also a heck of a mess to clean up.

I like Black Cat but Chris' Black Pearl is some pretty amazing stuff. I just bought a bag and like it a LOT. Very complex flavor profile and reasonably forgiving on temperature - its drinkable over a fairly wide range. Dolce' can be incredible but you have to hit the numbers on the temperature or you lose a huge amount of its "magic". However, these are all caffeinated.

Black Cat Decaf is fairly good but I haven't been able to get rid of all of the bitters. The CCC Organic Mexico decaf I've got here as well, and that's better, but STILL has a bite to it that calls for just a touch of sugar. If there's a decaf blend out there that doesn't do this, I've yet to find it. All the decafs I've tried need about 6 half-turns on my Macap M4 stepless more fine than caffeinated beans to pull correctly. I suspect the finer grind is necessary due to some of the oils and sugars being pulled out of the bean by the decaf process, and the resulting finer grind releases more of the bitter tasting components...... All the decafs I have tried also have visible oil on the surface of the bean (but just a bit) and are darker than their caffeinated counterparts. The "bite" of decaf may be one of those "no real way around it" issues.... or perhaps the guy on the handle end still has more work to do

[TimEggers]

My specific machine must be different because it requires a lengthy cooling flush to make a great tasting shot. I do not taste any sourness, just sweet chocolate...

The main point is to experiment and see what works.

Good Luck!

[DaveC]

To diagnose what, if anything in your technique might be affecting shot quality, it might be best to move to a fairly neutral and well known single bean variety thats medium roasted and work your techniques from there. A freshly roasted Brazilian such as Santos etc..

This way you can find out what makes a sour, sweet, neutral and bitter shot (plus ristretto, normal and lungo extractions, plus split the portions of extractions into thirds and taste each third), gain some reference points on machine and technique. This eliminates the unknowns of a blend on taste. I suggest the previous coffee, because you should easily be able to extract a range of taste profiles from it. In addition, you can then ask for the same bean to be roasted dark and see clearly the effect this has on the taste/technique combination.

I guess it's about reducing those variables and once you have the technique nailed, so that it's not the problem/thing you have to think about and you have control (so to speak), then go back to the blends with the knowledge that you know how to influence taste on your machine and all the ways to do it...if you can't get it to taste good then, try different blends.

My threehapence worth anyway (or 10 cents worth)

Dave

[TimEggers]

One thing I am beginning to grasp is the sheer importance of your distribution. I have found that even being a little off here (and seeing an uneven extraction from my bottomless porta) can really taint the shot. Mild swinging of the cone in my experience has added a layer of bitters/harshness to the shot. On shots where the extraction looks much more uniform the shot is noticeably cleaner and sweeter.

I also have seen that time behind the portafilter has been my greatest investment. You're just going to have to keep trying and one time it will all fall into place. It did for me a few days ago after nearly a year of frustrating attempts. I was almost ready to sell my machine!

Hang in there...

[TimEggers]

Step by Step:

1.) My set-up is a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe and Rancilio Rocky Doserless:



2.) Grind directly into basket (removed from portafilter, this makes level tamping easier for me when I can set the basket on the counter top). I also weigh the basket here to make sure I have 12g (for a 12g dose):



3.) WDT to break up clumps as well as distribute coffee in basket. Then I set tamper on coffee looking for a vertical shaft, tamper should sit level (no tamping here):



4.) I like using a bathroom scale to tamp to 35lbs pressure. Notice my fingers here, I rest them against the tamper base and the top of the basket so I can feel the tamper go down making sure I am tamping straight down. This is really important, you need a level surface post tamp:



5.) Here is my basket post tamp with a dose of 12g:



6.) I like a cooling flush for my machine, your milage may vary (sorry for the tilt ):



The result:

[edwa]

Looking at your fine photos I wondered about your bean storage. Is that glass container airtight? If the top doesn't have some kind of seal you might be better off keeping the beans in a ziplock inside the attractive container. You'll get a bit more life out of your beans if you store them well.

If it does seal, then in the words of a famous comedienne, "Never mind".

e

[TimEggers]

Looking at your fine photos I wondered about your bean storage. Is that glass container airtight? If the top doesn't have some kind of seal you might be better off keeping the beans in a ziplock inside the attractive container. You'll get a bit more life out of your beans if you store them well.

If it does seal, then in the words of a famous comedienne, "Never mind".

e

Oh yes, it is indeed airtight! My beans wouldn't be in anything that wasn't!

(good eye)