Toscano Redux

[timo888]

So, the first time I ordered Toscano 2006 from CounterCulture a month or so ago (it was superb, BTW) the beans were a golden honey-color, oaken. Just got another bag of Toscano (the 2006 is gone from the name) and now the beans are the color of dark cocoa. What gives? Did I not get Toscano the first time around? Or has the roast profile changed with the name?

Regards
Timo
P.S. No roast date on the bag.

[cannonfodder]

From CCC's Toscano details...

Each year, as new coffee crops arrive, we reformulate Toscano so we are sure to get that special sweetness we prize in this coffee.

A truism of the coffee business is "you must change a blend to keep it the same." In other words, preservation of a flavor profile requires constant revisiting and tinkering. Every time we reformulate Toscano, we change its name, not unlike a vintage year for wine. Hence, Espresso Toscano 2006.

We've recently reformulated the blend to emphasize the sweet chocolate notes that accompany Toscano's classic butter-caramel sweetness. We love chocolate and caramel in this coffee! After many weeks of testing and tasting, we believe we've hit the "sweet spot" with each of these three components with our signature "Espresso Roasting" technique, which stands as a modern-day homage to the slower, wood-fired roasters of traditional Tuscany.

[timo888]

From CCC's Toscano details...

Each year, as new coffee crops arrive, we reformulate Toscano so we are sure to get that special sweetness we prize in this coffee.

A truism of the coffee business is "you must change a blend to keep it the same." In other words, preservation of a flavor profile requires constant revisiting and tinkering. Every time we reformulate Toscano, we change its name, not unlike a vintage year for wine. Hence, Espresso Toscano 2006.

We've recently reformulated the blend to emphasize the sweet chocolate notes that accompany Toscano's classic butter-caramel sweetness. We love chocolate and caramel in this coffee! After many weeks of testing and tasting, we believe we've hit the "sweet spot" with each of these three components with our signature "Espresso Roasting" technique, which stands as a modern-day homage to the slower, wood-fired roasters of traditional Tuscany.

I suppose CCC are not going to be changing its name each year any more. It not 'Toscano 2007' now but simply 'Toscano'. But names aside, the coffee looks and tastes very different. There is a smokiness that wasn't there last time. Their spectrophotometer may need service.

Regards
Timo

P.S. The Toscano 2006 my wife drank without sugar. The current batch: "I strongly feel the need for sugar. There is a bitter aftertaste."

P.P.S. H-B member malachi wrote in 2005:

Counter Culture Toscano. To me, this tastes best in short milk drinks where some of the smoke gets toned down a little.
http://www.home-barista.com/coffees/espresso-tasting-notes-t327.html

There was no smokiness in the 2006 that I received. So either I was sent a mislabeled bag last time, or the roast profile for this blend varies considerably. CCC might could change the name to Terzo Portello

[cannonfodder]

But that is the beauty of coffee. Being an agricultural product, it changes year to year. Sometimes for the good, other times for the bad. That is one of the things that make commercial roasting so difficult. Having to constantly change a blend to retain a signature flavor from month to month let alone from crop to crop takes a lot of work. Then there are the 'oops, I roasted it a hair too long' moments.

[beta14ok]

Don't blink .....seems like it's changed .........again!

I've been sittin' in on Friday morning with the local (RDU) Espresso Geek Squad at the Counter Culture Coffee Espresso Lab so I've sorta seen and tasted some of the changes first-hand over the years. The ol' Toscano 2005 was a "stand-out" as a straight-shot. Wonderful sweet caramel-buttery-scotch notes which peaked ~3 days from the roast date. Everyone was using it...at home, in their coffee shops, in the barista competitions, "everywhere", ....and then not so mysteriously it went away when new lots of beans were migrated into the blend. Toward the end of 2006 and into 2007....it was just a different espresso for me more chocolate and less butter. I would let it cool on the bench, then the sweetness would come forward, but the mouth-feel was reduced as the crema dispersed. Some, like Geoff Corey, have suggested that the peak went so far-out from the roast date that it just wasn't as usable in a commercial setting and I know that he worked with Counter Culture to develop his own blend for his Pheasant Creek Coffee shop. I confess to switching to other blends also because I just wasn't tasting the same product.

This morning with the "Espresso Geek Squad" we were able to taste the most recent tweak to Toscano. Apparently a new Brazil and a new Sumatra in the mix. The batch was 3-days rested and clearly peak with just a little bit of bubbliness at the end of the pull. I pulled 3 very short, dense, consistent, doubles on Counter Culture Coffee's WBC LM machine and the results were fabulous. .....as close as I've tasted in memory to the old Toscano 2005....nice and sweet and buttery with a caramelly-choco' finish that leaves you wanting just one more. Nice job Tim! Word is that there may be additional improvements due to a new Brazil "ipanema" blend in the mix soon.

...can't wait to get some in my hopper at home.


The "voodoo-chemistry" of blending and roasting and brewing and tasting that give rise to these multitude of flavors staggers my mind.....keeps me curious....keeps me excited.

Sometime....try tasting a 6-year vertical of some good Bordeaux....same producer, same grapes, same label, different years ......they will not taste the same!


I would echo cannonfodder's comment that it "is the beauty of coffee" .....we simply can't control all of God's variables.
Rejoice in the surprises we are given.

[timo888]

But that is the beauty of coffee. Being an agricultural product, it changes year to year. Sometimes for the good, other times for the bad. That is one of the things that make commercial roasting so difficult. Having to constantly change a blend to retain a signature flavor from month to month let alone from crop to crop takes a lot of work. Then there are the 'oops, I roasted it a hair too long' moments.

My romantic self agrees with you, Dave, but my classical self steps back and wonders. I would not expect a roast to go from golden oak to deep mahogany after reading Peter Giuliano's remarks about CCC's use of spectrophotometry in their QC operations -- assuming that wasn't tongue-in-cheek -- it certainly sounded plausible to me after reading Illy on quality. So I assumed the darker, much smokier roast was intentional, not an oops! moment (or perhaps that I got a mislabeled bag last time). The current Toscano has moved much closer to Black Cat or Caffe D'Arte Firenze. Today's Toscano is sweeter than Black Cat and Firenze, and it has more lively flavors and aromatics. But its smoky finish is a bit rough to my palate.
Regards
Timo

[timo888]

Don't blink .....seems like it's changed .........again!

...

This morning with the "Espresso Geek Squad" we were able to taste the most recent tweak to Toscano. Apparently a new Brazil and a new Sumatra in the mix. The batch was 3-days rested and clearly peak with just a little bit of bubbliness at the end of the pull. I pulled 3 very short, dense, consistent, doubles on Counter Culture Coffee's WBC LM machine and the results were fabulous. .....as close as I've tasted in memory to the old Toscano 2005....nice and sweet and buttery with a caramelly-choco' finish that leaves you wanting just one more. Nice job Tim! Word is that there may be additional improvements due to a new Brazil "ipanema" blend in the mix soon.

I would have to resurrect malachi's opinion about the Toscano 2005, and apply it to the 2007: its smokiness is a bit harsh in the finish to my palate, and to my wife's; she will take it with sugar now when she was happy to drink the 2006 without it. And it is not because the Toscano '07 is not sweet or delicious; it is sweet and delicious, with good clarity and delightful aromatics, but an edgy finish. The Toscano of a month or so ago had the suavity of Caffe DArte's Firenze, only lighter.

Regards
Timo

[jesawdy]

Timo-

Have you tried calling CCC to see if you got a new or old blend? I'm not sure if they track that sort of thing, but I'm gonna guess they keep lot information or at least I hope so based on their size.

[Nanofish]

Hello all,

I love this discussion. Just for clarification my name is Tim Hill and I am one of the roasters for Counter Culture Coffee, and while it pains me to see some of the comments, I consider this valuable feedback. Furthermore, I encourage anyone who has any questions or comments to email me (tim@counterculturecoffee.com) and I will be more than happy to talk coffee. Once again, everyone here is great. Keep up the great discussion.

[beta14ok]

Hey Nanofish,

It might be fun if you could give us an accounting of the major changes to Toscano blend since the "infamous" Toscano 2005. I'm guessing that there have been at least 3 major changes, with the most recent being in the past week-or-so. I've tasted a lot of Toscano varients, some with hefty helping of fruit bombs (harrar and-the-like) beans. I know that most of those never saw production, but it might be interesting to this gang if you could map the time scale of the changes and your perception of the tasting notes at each change. I didn't get any of the "smokiness" or "edgyness" in the batch I drank this morning.....significantly better than a batch I sampled a couple of weeks ago. Also, it could be interesting to know what temp your WBC LM is operating.

Regards,
dmm

[cannonfodder]

Evening Tim and welcome to the community.

I assume the change in roast level is to accommodate the new lots flavor profile. I look forward to trying the latest incarnation once it is finalized. I know roast level varies from farm to farm and even bag to bag in some instances. It is interesting to taste the changes that occur at different roast levels. I have 3 different Ethiopians in my greens cabinet and each responds different to a given roast. I can't imagine the size of the log book a pro roaster has for profiling a bean, let alone a blend.

Taste is too subjective and personal to debate. One person's sharp acid cup is another's lemon zinger. The taster will reject or accept the cup based on their personal preference. I like fruity, berry blends (this month), which is why I have three different Ethiopians and prefer natural over washed processing, most of the time.

I so wish I had a local roaster that would allow me play on their LM and cup new blends. Tasting how the blend develops from start to finish would be most enjoyable. Unfortunately, my closest cafe is 180+ miles round trip so I have to rely on mail order, my hottop and the A3.

[HB]

I pulled 3 very short, dense, consistent, doubles on Counter Culture Coffee's WBC LM machine and the results were fabulous. .....as close as I've tasted in memory to the old Toscano 2005....nice and sweet and buttery with a caramelly-choco' finish that leaves you wanting just one more.

You're right Dave, those were among the best Friday espressos. Why didn't I take some of that blend home!

[timo888]

It might be fun if you could give us an accounting of the major changes to Toscano blend since the "infamous" Toscano 2005. I'm guessing that there have been at least 3 major changes, with the most recent being in the past week-or-so. I've tasted a lot of Toscano varients, some with hefty helping of fruit bombs (harrar and-the-like) beans. I know that most of those never saw production, but it might be interesting to this gang if you could map the time scale of the changes and your perception of the tasting notes at each change. I didn't get any of the "smokiness" or "edgyness" in the batch I drank this morning.....significantly better than a batch I sampled a couple of weeks ago. Also, it could be interesting to know what temp your WBC LM is operating.

I like this idea too. I didn't know Toscano in 2005. What do you mean to imply with "infamous", BTW? What was the reason for the 'bad reputation'?

Also, I would like to know if the beans I enjoyed a month ago -- their colors were gold, ochre, oak, copper, brass -- were indeed Toscano 2006. They were much brighter and yellower in hue than Redline, Paladino, Terroir, Dancing Goat, Coffee Klatch Belle, Paradise Classico, Ambrosia, or Rocket's Classic, all of which are in the raw umber, burnt umber, sepia range. The roast that is closest in hue to what I had from CCC is the Barefoot Redwood, but the Redwood is a much lighter roast in every respect. And the CCC beans had a sheen, so there were some surface oils but no droplets of oil. Do the brassy color and light sheen suggest a long slow relatively low-temp roast?

Regards
Timo

[PheasantCreek]

The main difference between 2005 and 2006 Toscano was Sulawesi was swapped out to Sumatra Lintong. The result of the switch was big difference when the blend peaked. With 2005 it was 4 days after the roast. With 2006 it was 9 to 10 days after the roast. Another difference I found was 2006 liked the temp cooler then 2005. I use to pull 2005 at 203.5, with 2006 I found 202 to be better suited. On the 9th/10th day it was piles of chocolate!

Now with each year of Toscano, lots for the components do change and there are some differences. What I have found is the switch to a new lots tends to be a stronger flavor profile. I believe that was the case with 2005 Toscano as new lots of Sulawesi were included.

[beta14ok]

What do you mean to imply with "infamous", BTW?

Sorry....very poor choice of words on my part. I certainly meant "notorious". ......but I did not mean "bad reputation."

On the contrary Toscano 2005 was a favorite of a lot of folks in the south-east, including me. And, as I stated earlier up the thread, lots' of folks were using it at home, in shops and in barista competitions.....I should say it was notoriously good!!.......really yummy stuff.....and the new iteration of "Toscano" seems much closer to that 2005 benchmark.

[timo888]

Could someone please confirm one simple fact for me? Was the Toscano 2006 ever a yellowish golden-oak colored roast (but with a deeper flavor than the color would suggest) ? Or has the Toscano always been dark cocoa-colored, so that the bag I received a month or two ago was possibly mislabeled Aficionado? (I haven't tried the Aficionado yet.)

Regards
Timo

P.S. Regarding "infamous" -- I wondered if perhaps you meant something like it was excellent but only in a very narrow temperature band, or that they were experimenting and the results were unpredictable.

[Nanofish]

As far as the roast level and color goes, Toscano has been almost exactly the same for as long as I have worked here. It may fluctuate by a point or two based on different lots, but has been very very close throughout the years. However some lots of Brazil and Sumatra look much different, and roast differently. Some have small spreads and some have large spreads. When I talk about spreads it refers to Agtron. We Agtron every batch whole bean and ground to see what the exact color of the coffee is. (Agtron is near infra-red light meter that displays the color of the coffee.)

Agtron numbers go some thing like this. Absolute black is 0. A sample roast which is generally very very light is 65-70.

Even though whole bean Agtron numbers are important, the ground Agtron represents a much better roast level representation of how light or dark a roast may be. The analogy I like to think of, is when cooking you can burn the outside of a steak but it can still be rare on the inside. The same is true with coffee. If roasted too fast you can scorch the outside but still have it underdeveloped on the inside. Obviously that is not the goal. The goal for us is to find the optimum balance of time, temperature, and degree of roast to best suit each coffee. Having different lots of coffee look the same does not represent that it is going to taste the same. While Toscano is roasted primarily on one machine, another factor when it comes to the look of the coffee is the roasting machine itself. One of our roasting machines will give an Agtron for one of our coffees at 50 whole bean, and 62 ground. Another one of our roasting machines will give the Agtron of 45 whole bean and 62 ground for the exact same coffee. So although they may look really different on the outside they are going to taste much closer than if we were to make them just look the same on the outside. So when we roast different lots of Brazil and Sumatra trying to be consistent in roast and taste, the look of the coffee is not at all a 100%. So the answer to the question is while Toscano may look slightly different than a month ago, or two years ago, the roast level has pretty much stayed the same. And just let me say that Toscano requires constant and painstaking dedication to roasting, tasting, and always refining to make it what it is, and feedback is something that we always welcome. Happy espresso everyone.

[PeterG]

Hey Guys-

I've been meaning to weigh in for a while, but internet connectivity can be difficult in East Africa, where I am traveling at the moment. But I managed to grab some wireless here at the Nairobi airport.

Our goal with Toscano is to maintain a consistent flavor profile, inspired by a coffee I tasted in Siena one time. The basic goal is to focus on sweetness; flavors of caramel, butterscotch, milk chocolate, dark chocolate, and a hint of nut (I always say, sorta like a Snickers bar.)

To maintain such a flavor profile, we must constantly tinker with the blend. This is especially true since Toscano focuses on Sundried Natural coffees from Brazil and Indonesia, which can be even more variable than most. Over the years, I think we've been able to consistently nail it, while at the same time enjoying the natural ebb and flow of flavors that comes along with coffee seasonality.

Over the years, we've gotten invaluable help in perfecting and maintaining the flavor profile from geeks like Mike Walsh and Dan Kehn, and pros like murky coffee, 9th Street Espresso, and Pheasant Creek.

When we first committed to transparency in our espresso blends, we decided to label Toscano with "vintage years" every time we changed the formula. This was to try to communicate the reality of coffee blends as fungible and ever-changing, and practice our goal of "radical transparency". We always list the components of Toscano, as we do with all the blends we sell. No secrets here.

However, a little while ago, we decided to drop the "Vintage Year" thing, because it was causing confusion. People were calling in February 2006 saying: "we have a bag marked Toscano 2005 here. Was it roasted last year?". So we dropped the year, but will always continue our practice of naming the component coffees of the blend on the label.

The very first Toscano blend in 2003 contained a small percentage (10% or so) of a French-roasted Sumatra. In a subsequent year (I think 2004), we dropped that percentage after a series of taste experiments with murky; we felt that the sharpness of the bittersweet dark chocolate of the dark roast was inconsistent with the goal of the blend. (It was sweeter without it). Since then, the roast level has remained nearly the same (just as Tim mentioned).

"Smokiness" has never been an intentional flavor component of Toscano. It was kind of a mystery to me when Tacy mentioned it in his review, but hey; the vagaries of taste are inscrutable. We've always maintained the focus on simple sweetness in this coffee, and people seem to love it.

As a number here have mentioned, our roasting QC is very tight, and we analyze every single roast a number of times. And our roasting profile for this coffee has remained focused.

All this said, I think that Timo got a mistakenly filled or labeled bag. As much as it pains me to say it, in our rush to roast coffee and ship it the same day, we've made a few mistakes over the years. This is the simplest explanation for the roast level inconsistency Timo observed. Tim, please give us some feedback on the comped bag we're sending this week; I'd love to hear your wife's take on it.

I'll post more later about the blend transitions over the years, and how that all works, but I have to go catch a flight!

See you soon

Peter

[timo888]

As far as the roast level and color goes, Toscano has been almost exactly the same for as long as I have worked here. ..
[much interesting detail snipped]

Thanks for the detailed answer. There was no subtle difference in the color of the two bags I've received from CCC. One was pale as golden oak, the other dark as mahogany -- as they typically appear in furniture. Really, it was like opening a second box of Kix cereal and finding Cocoa Puffs inside. I have to conclude then that what I received a month or two ago was simply a mislabeled bag. It must not have been Toscano 2006. Whatever it was, it was delicious, and I want another bag of it. It was yellower than any northern roast I've tried, but it had a deeper nuttier flavor with lots of caramel. Is that your Aficionado?

The Toscano I received this past week is losing more and more of its smoke with each passing day and is developing a smoother finish.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

"Smokiness" has never been an intentional flavor component of Toscano. It was kind of a mystery to me when Tacy mentioned it in his review, but hey; the vagaries of taste are inscrutable. We've always maintained the focus on simple sweetness in this coffee, and people seem to love it.

Peter,
Thanks for replying while your were en route. When you get settled in after touching down:

As I mentioned in my reply to Tim, the smokiness is fading as the Toscano ages and it is becoming smoother. The finish is still a little sharp back in the throat, compared to, say, Caffe D'Arte's Firenze, which finishes further forward on the palate...or on my palate, at any rate.

I think that Timo got a mistakenly filled or labeled bag. As much as it pains me to say it, in our rush to roast coffee and ship it the same day, we've made a few mistakes over the years. This is the simplest explanation for the roast level inconsistency Timo observed. Tim, please give us some feedback on the comped bag we're sending this week; I'd love to hear your wife's take on it.

Mislabeling must be the explanation. My wife is asking if I can get another bag of it, whatever it was If CCC could let me know which of your espresso roasts is closest in hue to this sample, I could place an order for a bag and see (note: it changes hue depending on whether it is being viewed from above or below on my LCD monitor; the view from the lower angle is closest):



Regards
Timo