Coffee tasting help

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
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EddyQ
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#1: Post by EddyQ »

I have been drinking coffee for decades but in the past two or three years I have been trying to improve my cup. At the beginning, I found ditching milk and drinking my drip brews black took out a variable that masked the actual coffee flavor. I picked up a Bialletti Brikka and found a significant improvement in my ability to taste the coffee flavor. I attributed that to the much stronger coffee. Last fall, I started pulling shots with a La Pavoni and all I can say is wow. So flavorful.

But recently I started roasting my own and am struggling with evaluating my coffee based on taste. Some number of roasts back, I thought I did a reasonable roast. It was an Ethiopian Harrar roasted dropped just before 2C. The esspresso had great aroma, mouthfeel, acidity with a bit or roastiness (so I thought). I almost gave this roast to a friend, thinking he would be impressed. But he doesn't brew espresso and only does drip brews. So, I decided to try this coffee in my Moka pot. The moka tasted drastically different in a negative way relative to the espresso. Ashiness tastes seem to be overtaking the nicer flavors. Then, I brewed a pour-over. The pourover tasted predominantly like ash. WOW. How could an espresso taste ok and a pourover taste so bad. I knew I had to make changes in my roasts and in my method of evaluating my roasts.

Today I tried something. I brewed a pour over with a Rwanda medium-light roast from a local roaster. I paid great attention to the weight of water and grinds to obtain 15:1 ratio. Then, I pulled a shot with my La Pavoni. I watered the shot with kettle water such that the ratio was also 15:1. I kept final brew exactly the same temperature by covering one as the other was prepared.



The two brews looked a bit different and I was convinced the La Pavoni brew was going to have acidity like the actual shot straight from the machine. It turns out, I had very difficult time telling the two appart. The appearance of the espresso brew was likely cloudy due to the crema. The pour over was very clear due to paper filtering. But taste was so similar I'm not sure I could tell them appart. And they both lacked the strong acidity. I assume the acidity is there, but diluted.

I tried a similar thing a few weeks back, where I followed closely the SCA cupping rules and made two cups with the exact same coffee. This was my "not so good" roasts, so I wasn't expecting nice taste. Both tasted drastically different than an espresso shot. The only conclusion I had was that I needed to explore ways to reliably evaluate taste.

Based on this experiment, I am a bit concerned my taste buds are lacking what I would need to judge my own coffee. I think I generally know what tastes good vs bad. But even that is somewhat questionable because my 4 months of drinking nice straight espressos seems to have tainted the tastes on my moka's and pour overs. Tasting specific fruit, nuttiness ect from my pour overs seems impossible for me right now. But I can get all those flavors with my espresso.

Does anyone have a routine that results in strengthening their ability to taste both with espressos and pour overs? I assume more and more tasting, experimenting and practice will help. For me, this is a struggle. Looking for tips here. I am considering taking a cupping SCA class up in VT this summer. Would you think that would help?
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RyanJE
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#2: Post by RyanJE »

I recently taught myself to cup for fun. Also to learn more about tasting. It's very easy to do and is a good reason to make small amounts of coffees for fun. Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUh8ScYp9TY

Try it out with different coffees at the same time. Also tatse them in intervals over a 20 minute span. If it keeps tasting better then you are in the right track.

Wish I would have done this when I first started drinking good coffee.

Also, if you are newer to light roasts don't be afraid to grind pretty fine. They need it.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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EddyQ (original poster)
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#3: Post by EddyQ (original poster) »

Ryan, I think you are correct. Cupping is the method of choice for evaluating taste. I believe I have tried cupping and did do the brew portion correctly. Yes, I have tasted the cups as they cool to room temperature and experienced the differences in taste that occures as it cools. Perhaps I should stick with this method of coffee evaluation and learn the general differences in taste (assuming there is a general trend) as the coffee is brewed differently.

So as you can see, I am still struggling with the actual evaluation of the coffee taste as it is brewed differently. I don't find cupping is bringing out all the flavors that I can actually taste relative to espressos and even moka's which are stronger brews. But, cupping does taste relatively close to pour overs and drip brews, so perhaps this method would be the best for coffee evaluation if I am planning to give to a friend who brews with a drip machine.

Adding milk also modifies the taste significantly. Does anyone evaluate coffee with milk added? (Assuming the coffee will be consumed my someone who always adds milk).
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RyanJE
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#4: Post by RyanJE »

I get ya. If your brewed coffee doesn't tatse right, especially when compared to espresso, it's highly possible your process needs improvement.

Can you post more details about your method? Also 1:15 is on the stronger side for a drip / pourover. Try 1:16.

Pour over can be finicky too and is very grind sensitive.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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EddyQ (original poster)
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#5: Post by EddyQ (original poster) »

Well, you might be right. I do struggle with discriminating between over and under extracted brews. Especially with weak brews such as pour overs. Stronger brews such as espresso and moka, I think I can detect extraction issues ok (I think).

I recently got myself a Bonavita dripper and temp controlled kettle. My grind is rather fine, just a bit coarse than my Moka grind. Not as coarse as a drip grind. To get 8oz brew, I assume 1-2oz stays in grinds/paper filter. So I plan on 9-10oz 205F water to be added. Since I want a 15:1 ratio, I need 17-18gms coffee. I pre-wet and let bloom 30 sec then add the rest. After about 2 min I agitate lightly to settle all grinds and open bottom. In about 4min my cup is full. As I said previously, the watered down espresso tastes very similar to this pour over. I'm quite sure my espresso is not over or under extracted, so I assume my pour over is fine as well.

I'm not sure I could taste the difference between 15:1 and 16:1. But I sure can test my ability with a cupping exercise. Might be interesting.
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drgary
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#6: Post by drgary »

Good tips so far. Developing one's palate is an ongoing thing. Some of it involves thinking about what something tastes like so you can start to use those descriptors, and then your words will guide you to tastes you're finding in the coffee.

Ed, I see another area that can cause confusion. You're mixing together learning how to taste with brewing via different methods. Isolate and control variables and you'll learn faster.

You might start learning how to taste with cupping. Learning how to pull a shot is different because it's more challenging to achieve temperature control, the grind, distribution and dose need to be right to get a flow rate that gets proper extraction, etcetera .... Since espresso extraction is so much more intense and can vary, maybe concentrate on learning to pull consistently good shots. Then evaluate your taste.

Brewing with a moka pot is very different than brewing for espresso. I like both, but the moka pot will tend to emphasize caramels as it's in the cool phase of brewing. As the boiler water heats up you need to stop brewing before it's so hot you're burning the coffee. I stop the brew by dipping the bottom of the moka pot in a bowl of cool water. Dark roasts do better brewed at cooler temperatures, etc.

You'll also learn that as coffee opens up and ages, flavors can change.

Roasting is a whole other area. The Mill City videos are excellent for that. Ashiness is avoided by watching your roast profile and not exceeding certain temperatures, unless you want a touch of ashiness (roast flavor) instead of the funk in a Sumatran and are intentionally doing a dark roast -- that you might best brew at 175°F.
Gary
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EddyQ (original poster)
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#7: Post by EddyQ (original poster) »

drgary wrote:Ed, I see another area that can cause confusion. You're mixing together learning how to taste with brewing via different methods. Isolate and control variables and you'll learn faster.
Thanks Gary. I think that nails what I need to do. Standardize on cupping. My roasts or someone else's, cup them and compare and keep good notes. Develope a taste baseline with that single brew method. Cup a whole lot more than I currently do with hopes my senses improve. I may sign up for the class at CLI in VT on cupping. Couldn't hurt. Next week I will be in St Louis and hope to visit Kaldis cupping on Friday. I would think cupping with others who cup would be a great experience.

Finally, if I am roasting for espresso, after cupping, my final thumbs up or not for the roast would be a week old pull from my La Pavoni. If I intend to impress a friend with his drip brewer, I may want to taste a drip brew with my roast before I hand it over to him. Perhaps with time my palate will develop allowing me to relate the brew methods flavors based on a cupping.
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Boldjava
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#8: Post by Boldjava »

Does anyone have a routine that results in strengthening their ability to taste both with espressos and pour overs?
...

Yes, cup with others. Your learning and experiences will dramatically differ from cupping by yourself. Folks don't need to know coffee; they do need to want to learn.

I cupped with others every Friday for about 5-6 months and it started to come together for me. If was after that when I took a cupping course with Nick Cho and Trish Rothgeb. I had enough experience that I could benefit from their instruction. What I learned is that frequency (weekly cuppings) and preparing coffee as we drank them (black, press pots, pourovers, vacpots) opened up the coffee differently in comparison to espresso.

Don't get discouraged. It is a long journey. Enjoy it.
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drgary
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#9: Post by drgary »

Boldjava wrote:Don't get discouraged. It is a long journey. Enjoy it.
I've been roasting for awhile but don't roast often, and I'm still learning to roast. Dave has been roasting way longer and recently noted that he's still learning.

Something I've found to make this more fun is ditching perfectionism. I don't get to cup often with others, although I totally trust Dave's recommendation to do so. I still brew my coffees with drip and evaluate them, keeping notes as I adjust my roasting technique. Also since I grew up drinking decent coffee made in a Chemex, with half and half and a bit of sugar, I don't mind using a little milk and sweetener for the roasts that aren't quite good enough to share with friends. That becomes the coffee I drink myself at the office, and it's still a lot better than most coffees I would buy.

I consider it good cooking -- and a matter of barista technique -- to find a brew method and temperature and preparation style that works with the coffee I've roasted. It's not unlike adjusting the flavorings in a sauce or gravy. Something roasted a bit dark will work well in a moka pot or in an Atomic where I froth some milk and add brown sugar. Something lighter and a touch sour may work well as an iced coffee brewed with the flash hot method.
Gary
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EddyQ (original poster)
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#10: Post by EddyQ (original poster) »

Boldjava wrote: Folks don't need to know coffee; they do need to want to learn.
That is interesting. There are few people who I work with that like coffee and might actual get into cupping if I present it to them correctly. I already have offered a few of them some of my roasted coffee and they seem interested. Hmmm. . . . I'm going to give this a go. Maybe I can start something!

Oh. No worries of discouragement with me. I think the barbed hook is burried rather deep.
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