This might be a little ridiculous, especially coming from someone who's never used the Vivaldi... but.

I would choose a similarly priced E61 first, for the conventional sized portafilter.. and I think they look better.

Vivaldi: 53/54mm | e61s: 58mm industry standard, wide variety of baskets and tampers.

That's just me.

malling wrote:Allthough I in principle agree with what you state in regards to alignment, even better allignmeant will eventually hit a diminishing return, where a better allignmeant won't result in a noticable taste difference.

I own an Ek and I can hit pretty high EY with it, the shot are just amazing and mind blowing. Some people won't like what it delivers but this is an entire different debate.

I previously owned a k30 that where well alligned, and I where able to hit pretty high EY with that one as well.

So for me personally there won't be much to gain, that said I would love to play arround with a Titus

I didn't see you already had an EK. Yes, they are very good, although give a different style of shot.

I think everyone should some shots off one. The EK isn't what I would think of as comfort food espresso (which normally make me think of high TDS with lots of crema), but the slightly longer 1:2.5 - 3 shots can be quite nice when drinking straight espresso.

I look forward to hearing your feedback once you get a chance to play with a Titus. In terms of the original poster, I thought one would suit his preferences better.

mrespresso23 wrote:While there's no question that grinder makes a big difference, I also believe that above a certain price range the benefits becomes marginals.
If I were you, I would first try to determine how well I can notice a difference "in-the-cup" when comparing grinders.

To be honest, I wasn't able to pick a difference between HG-1 and Ceado e37s. Others might.
Therefore, I was not looking for the most expensive grinder, but one that will be convenient to use.
I ended up with Linea Mini + Ceado e37s.

If I were to purchase again, I'd probably go with the same setup, but I could also see myself using a K30.
I haven't seen anything else that triggers an interest.

The price range you are reffering to, take place at the $2400-3600 mark. The flat burr grinders in that price range is superior to those under it!

Grinders like the Ek43 and Compak r120 blows the panties of most of these "cheeper" grinder. And the Peak dos the same from what I have heard, although in a lesser extent. the Mythos dos a noticable better job then the majority of cheeper grinders as well and it is not without reason that grinder is replacing conicals in a rapid pace in mainland Europe!

In other words you have to pay a premium price to get there, the grinders in the $1000-2200 are not nearly as good or nearly as consistent and many of these "cheeper" grinders suffer from massive retention, but the cheeper grinders are good enough for comfort shots, but are lacking when brewing very light roasted coffees, Nuanced SO etc.

I have an EK and it is litteraly leaving all other grinders I have previously owned for dead, many of these where the so called titan grinders. But the ek is not a grinder for someone like the OP, as it is not a comfort shot grinder, it has a very narrow sweetspot and isn't very forgiving for barista errors.

For someone like OP the k30 is at the top, better grinders is in all fairness an overkill

I have had a Linea Mini for 4 months, started with an Hg 1. Great fluffy grind, but I did not like the manual grind. I purchased a Fiorenzato F4, with the intention of using for decaf for wife and have not looked back. F4 works nicely with the Linea.
I am Espresso only and came from 10 years with a Vivaldi S1 that my son now uses....never an issue and a very good machine. I sometimes think about "upgrading" grinder. Just don't believe after comparing the Hg1 with F4 that it would make a drastic difference!
I started with an Isomac Tea (E61) and went to the Vivaldi for Repeatability...so my goals have been the same. Good luck with your choice!

Here is my current setup, which is about exactly in the budget--leaving a little for water treatment too!

I have used this setup for espresso (me) and cappuccinos (my wife). While I am happy with it, I am contemplating upgrade. For me it's going to be either a GS3 or a Linea Mini. Still a little on the fence, but leaning towards LM. Let us know what you choose!!

The Vivaldi has a long list of nice ergonomic options, from large, easy to set controls to a nice internal timer. Also it's easy to shut off the steam boiler. Not too tall either, which is nice for our kitchen. But still, the upgrade itch has hit. (To bad there is not an easy way to A:B the options in the world of espresso machines)

jeffb, interested to hear your thoughts of the LM compared to the Vivaldi with respect to espresso.

As I mentioned my son has my 10 year old (now 11)Vivaldi S1, it is paired with a Cimbali Jr of equal age that I replaced the burrs before transfer to him.
We visited Austin Tx, where the equipment now resides, several weeks ago. My son pulled the shots, as he has his own process and I was very satisfied with the quality. He purchases Cuvee coffee and it was a very enjoyable Americano. I found and still believe the Vivaldi is an excellent machine that is extremely repeatable.
I really do like the 58mm portafilter on the "Mini". My son is planning on upgrading the grinder (Jr. with doser is not extremely 'clean") and I will be curious, as the shots are good now.
I tried both with the Hg1, but the Linea was very new to me, so I am not sure that it was fair comparison.
I would say the Linea has a very smooth mouthfeel and that the flavors may be somewhat more outstanding, but I could certainly live with the Vivaldi.

I have the Linea Mini plumbed and with a drain, however the ease of doing was not the best.....
I borrowed a Scace and have verified the temps and the Temp stability and ease of changing is very nice.

All in all I think the Vivaldi was a bargain and I more than got my money's worth and much enjoyment. I am enjoying the Linea Mini and the shots are excellent and more than meets my needs. I have no desire to change to another machine and certainly do not need any other features!

I wanted to reach out and thank everyone for their well thought out replies. It is interesting: one of the problems one faces with trying to "skip" steps in the graduation from entry level--to--high-end equipment is that you do not have the experience to make educated decisions. Yes, you can save the money you might have spent trying out the mid-level, before making the jump. On the other hand, the high-end you purchase might not suit your individual preferences.

I think it is safe to say that as many have noted. I will "straighten out" the grinder first. I can improve the cup in my current machine and be "prepared" for the next machine.

I will choose between mythos, k30 and possibly Compak R8.

I need to test drive a e61 db before making a final decision on the machine. The comparisons and the attention to mouthfeel intrigue me.

Much appreciation from all those who have helped with their personal experiences.

Jstroke wrote:Ok, No one has jumped in on the Alex Duetto 3 which tells me that better quality can be had for similar money.

Jstroke wrote:DB--with PID--e61--for mouthfeel. Hmmm something to consider--warmup/stability time?????

FYI, the Duetto 3 is an E61 DB with PID. You can shut off the steam boiler if you have no use for it.

Jstroke wrote:To ask another question of those that grind daily with an HG grinder. Does it ever get old to hand grind? I am talking about after the shininess and the honeymoon is over. more than a year later-hundred lbs though it--plus. At 5:45 am?

Can't comment on the HG1 itself but that sort of thing is generally more a matter of the individual than the object. On many topics -- not just grinders and not just espresso -- there are those willing to go to lengths for the desired result while others are not. From what you've said in other posts about wanting simplicity of usage, etc, a hand grinder doesn't seem like a good fit to me.

Jstroke wrote:I am bad at figuring out how to quote--excuse the ignorance.

It's easy if you're just quoting one message as you just hit the double quote button and trim away any irrelevant text from the post you're quoting, adding your reply and submitting.

It gets a little trickier for multi-quoting. Some sites have a multiquote feature where you can tag posts you want to quote and then when you start your reply all the messages are quoted. This site doesn't have that feature as far as I can tell.

What I do on all discussion forum sites is quote the first message I want to reply to and submit the reply. I then reply to the next message, copy the final text, cancel the reply, edit the my original reply, paste the additional content and submit. You can edit your own messages on most sites. That's how I drafted this message, replying to different posts of yours. It sounds more complicated than it really is.

Interesting thread, although it's always fun to spend other people's money. I would like to make a few points:

1. Espresso only machine: it's possible you may have guests at some point who would like a milk drink and I would tend to get a machine that had a steam wand on it
2. Mythos grinder: undoubtedly a great grinder, although several times I've seen them in shops, I've been impressed with how large they are. Hard to imagine in a typical kitchen.
3. A commercial type lever (like the L1 which I own) is by far the easiest machine to make shots on that I've owned (including the
Vivaldi). It's built like a tank, has a commercial group head on it. You can't easily temp surf on it, but since you don't switch coffees much, that's not a big deal
4. HG 1 grinder (which I also have) gives remarkably good shots. If you like medium to darker roasts, it's not a big problem on a daily basis. Light roasts are quite a bit harder to grind and, if I liked light roasts (which I don't), I wouldn't like using it much.

Most of the comparisons on this forum between high end grinders end with the conclusion that most people can't distinguish between different grinders when blind tasting. So, I'm not sure that spending $5000 on a grinder, compared with $2000, will be particularly noticeable.

In the end, given that you're coming from a Silvia and a Rocky, I think almost anything you're considering would taste like manna from heaven.

I have and highly recommend the Linea Mini. Straightforward, simple, and amazingly consistent. It's so rock solid temp wise I'd bet you see the Integrated Group appear in LM's commercial machines very soon.

I used it for first month with my Mazzer Mini E which I've had for 14 years along with a Reneka Techno which was one of the first dual boiler rotary pump 1 degree temp machines available. The LMLM was definitely more consistent with a cleaner, clearer result in the cup. Which ws worth it for me.

A month in my Mythos One Clima Pro arrived and Holy $h*+ what a transformation! The mantra of Grinder, Grinder, Grinder! Is so true. The Mythos made a bigger difference in the cup than the machine. The Mythos is so simple to use. It delivers super fluffy clump free grinds right in to the portafilter with hardly and mess. No RDT and no WDT needed. Just grind, tap, tamp, and pull beautiful espresso prom shots out of the bottomland portafilter every time. Highly recommended.

If you shop around a bit and spend just a little bit more I doubt you could be any happier.

And if you ever need to do milk drinks you will have top quality commercial steaming available too.