I currently have a Forte AP feeding a BDB. I expect to upgrade this summer both the grinder and possibly the machine with the grinder first and evaluating whether I need to upgrade the machine. I am looking at the Compak F8/F10, Mahlkonig K30, Macap M7D. I have dropped any Mazzers from consideration because of the stiff grind adjustment collar. The first problem that I now have is the scarcity of Compak and Macap reviews by users to help guide an informed decision. Are there any users out there that can help with those brands?

For my eyes, the Forte produces a fluffy, non clumpy grind into my PF. I'm inexperienced enough to know whether I can see the improved results from the grinder in the cup. I understand that the K30 and Forte are flat burr and the F10 and the Macap are conic. The choice is further complicated by my unsophisticated palate. Also the consistency of dose of the timed grind from the Forte is questionable. I live alone and drink lattes' in the AM and occasionally a espresso in the PM. I am learning what consists of a good espresso to me. I haven't been able to enjoy a sugarless espresso and at this point doubt that I will be able to. Which is what is nudging me toward the up grade. The closest roaster to me is Klatch other than Tonyan. I have tried their coffees and like them but they are about an hours drive away and at my age I'm not too happy about doing that just to taste coffees plus they haven't been too responsive to my questions. Any info will be much appreciated!!

Sounds like you're upgrading more for better usability than for taste, as you indicated your unsophisticated palate.

I upgraded from my AP to a K10 Fresh. I love it. Excellent usability, fluffy grounds, consistent distribution of fines, and best of all, it's very fast, taking only a few seconds to fill a standard double basket with my home roast (medium).. Three seconds, zero mess. perfect spritz free shots.

I would definitely recommend mail ordering your coffee. Even if Klatch was an hour from me, it's cheaper to pay $5 for shipping.

I'm really pleased with my K30. If I had more space I might have one of the big Compaks instead but I was cabinet limited. No regrets at all with the K30.

The assumption has been that the Forte and Vario are the same in the cup. That seems to be accepted as fact around these parts.

However, I've often wondered if this is true. Yes, they share the same ceramic burr set from Mahlkonig. But the Forte is more robust, potentially better aligned, and my understanding is that its motor spins faster.

Therefore I'm curious if this translates into a taste difference. How many people have actually done blind testing comparing the Vario and Forte. I bet not many.

Anyway, I'm not saying there is a taste difference between the Forte and Vario. I'm just asking the question. And wondering whether as assumption became fact without anything to justify that assumption.

Scotty:

Not really. I really would like to improve the cup. My statement about the unsophisticated palate was to put the whole question into a context. So far every grinder I have tried SEEMS to give me a bitter taste that I cover up with sweetener. I have tried the B preciso, Compak K3 Touch and the Forte. I have varied the dose, temps, grind on all of the grinders all of which has just given me the bitter taste with some minor overtones that when sweetened give me a very tasty espresso on the Forte. To put my question into further context I can't taste the various flavors in wine that the experts write about either.

For both drinks (wine and coffee), i enjoy most of what I try with the caveat that I need to sweeten the espresso. It all boils down to "I can enjoy a sweetened (not soda sweet) espresso" and I can detect a difference in the taste of the various coffees as I vary the parameters of a grind. I currently have been enjoying the medium roast african coffees that i have been getting from Redbird and Sagebrush. I also have enjoyed Schomer's Vivace as well as several others of the better known specialty roasters that i have tried. However, I haven't been able to enjoy a dark roasted Sumatra that I have tried from a couple of different roasters. In discussions with Jeff at Redbird, he asked if I had a "bitter" gene and then went on to describe a taste test that he participated in when he was in high school which seemed to prove that some people simply taste bitter in everything they taste to some degree.

To sum up, I'm beginning to feel that I probably will never have a sophisticated coffee palate and I should just accept the inevitable and stop trying to improve and enjoy what I've got.

Above all, I appreciate the replies from you and others trying to help.

Hal, I am curious - does coffee also taste bitter to you?

When I was trying to understand the "strength" of straight espresso, and distinguish sour or butter or acidic, a good friend of mine (nickw on this board) suggested that I make some Americanos out of my espressos - this really really helped. You see, straight espresso is very strong and is a bit of an embardment to the taste buds.

Here is something, that in my case, proved true, and enlightening:

1) I don't find a really good pourover (or french press) coffee to be bitter or sour. Caveat - it must good - fresh wonderful whole beans. But, like espresso, it can be bitter (over extracted) or sour (under extracted.). Do you find a great cup of coffee sour or bitter? Coffee is gentler on the tastebuds - it is easier to get a smooth cup of coffee than a smooth espresso! Brewing coffee is less exacting.

2) Since coffee can be smooth and delicious, espresso can also be, but it is more difficult - it is more exacting.

3) Since I believe #2 - I set out to see how smooth/sweet I could get my espresso so I began trying different doses of espresso and then diluting to americano strength. This really enlightened things. Also, if you let the coffee cool a little it is easier for your palate to enjoy the richness of the coffee - I find that really good coffee tastes better when it has cooled just a tad.

4) Now that I knew a recipe for a great espresso/americana I practiced smelling and tasting these shots so I would know what a great espresso shot tasted like, straight. I don't drink straight espresso - it is just not my preference, it is too strong and overwhelming, but it is valuable knowing what straight espresso tastes like even if you are going to make a milk based drink.

5) Once I could make a great Americano, I used this recipe to make my milk based espresso - it was wonderful - this produced the best espresso drink that I ave ever made, and I still use the occasional Americano to "test" my espressos.

5) Now I make my espresso shots, and smell every time and sip occasionally, as a part of my routine. My routine is making breve type lattes with grass fed butter as well as MCT oil, heavy cream and a little milk. I also love straight milk lattes, but I try to avoid too much milk because of the sugar content.

I hope this might help!

Cheers! Steve

Understandable inclination to upgrade but you have good equipment. I have a basic Gaggia classic with a PID on it, dimmer switch on the pump to control flow, VST baskets, and manual Pharos grinder. Had amazing espresso just today... Sweet, stone fruits, rich. Got there by easing up on my grind a couple days in a row, ensuring good distribution of grounds with WDT using a metal cake tester, and pre infusing.

First I think it's important to distinguish sour, acidic, and bitter.

Sour is like bad milk
Acidic is like fruit zing
Bitter is like charcoal burned flavour

Sour comes from cold temps or way too fast flow from too coarse or channeling
Acidic is good but can be over concentrated... The suggestion to make americanos is good. Add water bit by bit and if it tastes good, you are over extracting with too fine grind
Bitter can also be over extraction

The somewhat counter intuitive bit is you can grind too fine and have channeling because the coffee is too fine but poorly distributed so the water finds a quick way through gaps. You can then grind coarser and get richer better pours. You can back off the dose a bit to tone down the aggressiveness of the flavours.

Good luck! Check out Al's Rule on HB.

All you guys! I think that the replies from you are the best info I have gotten since I jumped into the espresso rabbit hole. Since it was just shy of midnight here in SoCal when I read your replies it will have to wait until tomorrow morning to try your suggestions. I will have to try both my Aeropress and my Bonavita Immersion dripper to be sure I have done a decent job of trying to iron out the solutions. As a further bit of info, iced coffee from my Toddy has not tasted bitter even at full strength, I usually dilute it 1:1 because the flavor was too intense at full strength. That seems to say that high temp may be a contributor to my problem although my temp is set at 200 -201 F.

I will definitely report back the results of my trials. Ciao!!

Hey Hal!

Glad to see you're tapping into the HB community as well. Have you found any shops near you that use conical grinders? Even if it's another brand, that could give you some great comparison data with plugging that brew ratio into your Forte at home. [Mike from] CompassCoffee and Danetrainer are two experienced Macap owners that helped me learn about the M7D and choose to import it. Mike posted a grinder and machine comparison between his large flat burr and the M7D here:/grinders/m ... 35723.html.

@BP