Water coming out of opposite grouphead exhaust during extraction

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stevezer0
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#1: Post by stevezer0 »

I have a Fiorenzato Fenice,2 group semi automatic w e61's.

Today started pulling a shot from my right group head and noticed that water was simultaneously leaking from left group head exhaust valve, plus some from the actual group head. I took both group heads apart and there was a tad bit of scale built up on the mushroom, but nothing on the lower portion of the valves looked out of sorts. Put it all back together and although most of the water has stopped coming out the group head, it is still coming out of the exhaust. If I pull a shot on the left side, it will leak on the opposite.

Another weird thing is that I am not getting a nice "psssshhhh" release when I turn off the pump, I have to turn the portafilter to the side to release pressure.

Am I just looking at needing new springs, valve, and o-rings here? From what I understand, the only reason water would leak out of the exhaust would be because of the valve not sealing.

I know my solenoids (tested) are definitely working, so not that.

Any help would be much appreciated, I've been working on this machine the last couple days and I just wanted to make sure there wasnt something else to worry about.

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HB
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#2: Post by HB »

stevezer0 wrote:Am I just looking at needing new springs, valve, and o-rings here? From what I understand, the only reason water would leak out of the exhaust would be because of the valve not sealing.
I agree, sure sounds like a rebuild is in order. When is the last time you replaced the seals? There's several how-to articles on rebuilding E61 groups, e.g., Overhauling and Lubricating the E-61 Group and E61 Group Servicing. Even a E61 Group Maintenance video by one of our sponsors, Venia Coffee.
Dan Kehn

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stevezer0 (original poster)
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Joined: 10 years ago

#3: Post by stevezer0 (original poster) »

Dan,

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I've owned this machine for a couple years and I have not replaced anything in the group heads, so seals could be due. It does get heavy use as it is a commercial machine. I only get leaking when pulling a shot, would that have anything to do with the pressure from the pump?

What seal would cause water to come out the opposite group head when under pressure? Mushroom o-ring is the only piece of rubber I see there. The 2 tiny seals on the port 1 and 2 above the solenoid seemed ok, but again could need replacing.

I have read all those links you posted, but one item that is a little confusing is that those are all based for models with a lever. The group heads with this machine are working off a solenoid. The bottom exhaust valve has 2 pieces inside a spring and a piston type (not the brass type with the levers) and the mushroom has just a gasket, no spring or anything like that beneath.

Here is a pic of the piston, where I can get this specific part?


Should there be an o-ring down there? Looks like where one should be seated, but nothing there.

http://imgur.com/bBIqFDe

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HB
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#4: Post by HB »

stevezer0 wrote:I've owned this machine for a couple years and I have not replaced anything in the group heads, so seals could be due. It does get heavy use as it is a commercial machine.
That's a safe bet. The techs at reputable roasters like Counter Culture Coffee service their clients' espresso machines quarterly (descale, gaskets, etc.). If you haven't done this basic maintenance in a couple years, you're way overdue.
stevezer0 wrote:I only get leaking when pulling a shot, would that have anything to do with the pressure from the pump?
Yes, that makes sense since the hydraulics system is pressurized by the pump to 9 bar; only those groups with their group solenoid open should be brewing. If one of the solenoids is leaking, either it's not sealing because the seat is worn, the spring is weak, or less likely, the brew pressure is well above specifications (9 bar).
Dan Kehn

stevezer0 (original poster)
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#5: Post by stevezer0 (original poster) »

Great insight, thanks for your responses. I am definitely going to go ahead and work on replacing all the rubber seals/o-rings and springs.

I am curious if me recently turning up the pump pressure on the rotary would have anything to do with this.. I find it hard to believe that turning the screw a few times would increase the pressure that much. I may dial that down a tad again to see if that has any impact.

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HB
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#6: Post by HB »

stevezer0 wrote:I find it hard to believe that turning the screw a few times would increase the pressure that much.
Not to ask the obvious, but did you measure? The bypass adjustment on the rotary pumps I've used are fairly sensitive, i.e, I adjust in 1/8th turn increments. Turning that screw "a few times" would be an enormous change. While we're on the subject, keep in mind that if you have scale buildup, adjustments like those on the pump can be sticky. Based on your information so far, it sounds like this equipment is way past overdue for a full evaluation.
Dan Kehn

stevezer0 (original poster)
Posts: 21
Joined: 10 years ago

#7: Post by stevezer0 (original poster) »

It was the pump. We have a faulty brew gauge, so I usually check with a portafilter gauge that I rigged up. It was very high. Backed it off and now it's working fine.

Thank you