I was in the same situation few months ago.
Initially my short list was: La Cimbali, Elektra T1, Profitec 700.

Like you, I had a preference for a commercial machine, but I was struggling with the high cost of an HX vs a super modern dual boiler. Steaming power was super important for me since i love cap, and my wife doesnt do espresso.

Ultimately I ended up with the LMLM. I figured that if I were to buy one of the other 3, then I'll ultimately want to upgrade yet again and I won't be satisfied. I decided that it would be wiser to save the time and effort and just go streight to the one I really want.

My suggestion: if you have an itch for the La Cimbali (I sure had), then seek a used one. You will save a lot of money, and you'll always be able to sell it for pretty much the same amount once you are ready to go higher. It's actually quite fun to go through multiple machines. I wouldn't spend today $3000 on a new one. It doesn't make any sense in my opinion.

Otherwise, go with a LMLM or stay with what you have for now until you are ready for a bigger jump. No point spending all this money for something that only makes you marginally happier. Few weeks after the fact when the thrill of a new toy goes away, you will likely feel it. Ultimately that's what drove me to go LMLM and I'm happy with my decision.

FYI I moved from a Vario to e37s and I am super pleased with it. I don't single dose. I keep about 250gr in the hopper and make 3-4 drinks a day (more during the weekend).

My grinds are faster, quieter and more consistent from the Vario (I didn't like having to continuously mess with the Vario levers). Furthermore, I love how the Ceado looks (nicer than K30 on my mind) and the build quality. I had a spray the first day while I was fine tuning it. Not a single spray since.

It feels great to have a "commercial" setup at home.
In my mind, it's about the "experience" and "pride of ownership". Does it yield better espresso than a DB with Mazzer Mini? I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference in a double blind test, but I don't cover my eyes everyday when I'm making coffee.

Good luck!

If you have the money and want a pump-based espresso machine to just pull really great shots and produce exquisite microfoam, look no further than the La Marzocco Linea Mini ("LMLM" for short). I contend it is better "barista's" machine than any "home" machine you can get today for the home.. even KVDM Speedstears and One-group Slayers... You name it.. Though many revere those machines for what they offer, but if you're down for a solid no-nonsense performing machine I think the LMLM is the best choice regardless of budget. I've compared the LMLM side by side it's $7000 elder sibling the GS/3 and not only did the Mini have a better build and finish, it pulled a better shot using the same roast, grinder and PF. (though "better" is absolutely subjective, I realize).

Now if you're after counter bling, of course nothing beats the Speedster, IMO. Or if you like experimenting with pressure profiling on a pump-based machine, then maybe the Vesuvius or the Slayer might be a better choice, though you'll be paying very high premium for yet one more vairable to play with...as if there weren't enough already to deal with! Personally, I've always felt that pressure control/profiling is better served by a direct lever machine and cheaper too as most lever machines cost a fraction of the price of the Slayer and even the Vesuvius.

Speaking of levers, shortly after I bought the Linea Mini, I purchased a new Cremina using the proceeds from selling two exquisitely finished vintage Cremina 67's I had on my counter. Creminas (new and old) are capable of pulling better shots than most pump machines, but of course it takes more experience (I've logged about ten times the number of shots on a Cremina than on all of my previous pump machines). Compared today though, I pull equally tasty shots on both the LMLM and Cremina machines, albeit different. They just function very differently however the workflows are not too different prior to the shot. Using the same roast, my Mini currently pulls a slightly richer body over the Cremina, however the Cremina offers a more balanced if not delicate and thinner shot. I admit though that having plenty of experience on both machines, I don't think it would be too hard in making the necessary adjustments to pull a richer shot on the Cremina. On the LMLM though I don't have immediate control over the shot but maybe eventually, with more experience. Just something you might wanteven consider.

Thanks so much mrespresso and weebit (and others).....what great sound advise. And I do agree with most all points brought up.

The old saying "buy once and cry once" definitely comes into play here. The LMLM is such a sweet machine and I do not think I have heard one negative about it. The price difference between a Cimbali Jr and the LMLM is roughly $1,800. That's the biggest hurdle. I can really use the $1,800 to buy my Ceado. I just have to rationalize if the LMLM is worth the extra $1,800???

And I would love to buy used. BUT finding a used Cimbali Jr DT1 is next to impossible. Even living within the NY Metro area you would think more used espresso machines would show up, but not the case from my experience.

I definitely want to upgrade my grinder asap, and in fact, I think I will be doing today or tomorrow....so that should be finalized shortly and think that would make a huge difference on my existing E61 DB.

***One question I do have as it relates to the LMLM....and will be a major drawback for me. I was told (and I could have gotten back info) that LM is still working the kinks out to "direct plumb" the machine. Is that true? Also can you direct drain the machine? I'm somewhat concerned about having it plumbed, but if I can not direct drain the LM it will be a deal breaker. I've been spoiled with my E61 DB being plumbed and drained the past 4-yrs and don't think I can ever be happy filling reservoirs and draining drip trays.

Thanks so much again for everyone's help....I am very grateful!

You can easily drain and do direct plumbing with the LMLM. It is not as elegant switch as the profitec 700 but it is still a conversion that is well support and documented by the company. They sell a conversion kit which you can use or you can have your technician do it without the official parts for a lower material costs.

Bottom line is that if you are not looking to switch from direct to reservoir often, I.e it is a one time thing, then the LMLM is suitable.

Keep in mind that La Cimbali is either plumbed or drain, but you cannot switch at all.

My suggestion: buy the grinder and upgrade the machine in few months. It is a wiser decision than buying new Cimbali. I understand that $1800 is not an amount that can be ignored, but unless Cimbali is the machine you crave, you will lose much more in the long term.

Stay with what you have and save for the one you really want. As I previously stated, in my opinion new Cimbali is not worth $3000.

Personally I'd rather own a Vario + LMLM instead of Titan + Cimbali. It is not that I don't appreciate the benefit of an amazing grinder, but I'd still prefer to own a LM and hunt for a used grinder down the line (Good grinders come up 2nd hand more often, and are safer to buy used). Commercial grinders are built like a tank, and there's not much that can go wrong. Coffee shops sell those, and they rarely sell home espresso machines. Therefore you can buy one on EBay and not worry about seeing/checking it in person.

FYI I bought my Ceado used. It was a no brainer. You will enjoy the LM with Vario so don't think you have to get the new grinder on day 1.

Hope it helps.

Ok everyone....time for an update.

First, I want to express how grateful for all the advice on selecting a new machine....it was very help.

I think I have it narrowed down to two machine. My thought process is trying to get into a machine without breaking the bank while I continue to learn and develop my barista skills. When I feel my skills warrant a $4-7k machine I will simply move into a more advanced machine at that time. Maybe the market will evolve and newer and better machines will be available at 3-5 years down the road? Plus I REALLY wanted to stay within my $4k budget with the machine and grinder and going to a LMLM would put a huge damper on the process.

Soooo...to that end, I did upgrade my grinder. I went with the Ceado E37S because I got a super deal on an open box/return. Just could not pass it up. Going to a titan conical was in the cards, and from the home I did, the E37S is one of the better big flats without breaking the bank for $1k. Obviously time will tell if it is good or not from my needs, but I don't think I can get terribly hurt while developing my skills imho.

Ok, ok so what two machines. I believe I have it narrowed down to the La Spaziale Vilaldi II and the Cimbali Jr Casa. After 4-yrs with my E61 DB, which has been GREAT to me btw, I simply want something different to play with. I feel if I go with another E61, it will be a laterally move. Trying the Vivaldi II or a HX Jr Casa I can learn some new things and develop different skills.....at least that is what I am convincing myself:-).

So that is the latest update as to where my head is at and I do not mind darts being thrown at me if anyone feels differently. Given that criteria I am open to any and all suggestions, from user experience, on the two machines mentioned above???

My goal is to get into a new machine by the end of the month....that is when I will be selling my E61.

Again, many thanks in advance........

tegee wrote:Ok everyone....time for an update.

[snip]

I think I have it narrowed down to two machines. My thought process is trying to get into a machine without breaking the bank while I continue to learn and develop my barista skills. When I feel my skills warrant a $4-7k machine I will simply move into a more advanced machine at that time. Maybe the market will evolve and newer and better machines will be available at 3-5 years down the road? Plus I REALLY wanted to stay within my $4k budget with the machine and grinder and going to a LMLM would put a huge damper on the process. [snip]

Funny... I remember having similar thoughts 16 years ago. In 2000 I purchased an new Silvia from WLL for $350. Today the price is $685! Anyway, in 2003 I was hit with upgrade fever and itching to move into the big leagues. At the time there was a lot of talk about the dual boiler prosumer Reneka Techno v1... but yikes, it was $1100!. So my wife and I reviewing our budget etc. talked it over for a couple weeks. Then, when we finally decided to bite the bullet and buy it the price had jumped to $1500! Rather than get hit with another increase I pulled the trigger. A couple years ago, just before the Techno was discontinued, the price had climbed to $3200!

In other words... the longer you wait the more you will spend. When reviewing machine prices today I'll admit to sticker shock. Even more eye opening was coming back to this site (after many years absent) and reading posts and replies with people casually discussing prices of $2300 and up for prosumer home machines like V2B, Pro 700, Duetto III. I discovered inflation was still alive and well.

NET: I'm 100% confident newer machines will be available 3-5 years down the road (better machines is subjective) but you can count on them being even more expensive than they are today. Ten years ago PID's were pretty rare and built in shot timers were a pipe dream. Today these features are the norm. As the digital world continues to evolve you can bet it will take the espresso culture with it. Time marches on!. After all it was over two years ago when the Bluetooth espresso machine and App were introduced. Hard to guess where espresso machines will be in 10 years.

tegee wrote:


Ok, ok so what two machines. I believe I have it narrowed down to the La Spaziale Vilaldi II and the Cimbali Jr Casa. After 4-yrs with my E61 DB, which has been GREAT to me btw, I simply want something different to play with. I feel if I go with another E61, it will be a laterally move. Trying the Vivaldi II or a HX Jr Casa I can learn some new things and develop different skills.....at least that is what I am convincing myself:-).



Again, many thanks in advance........

I have had quite a few years with the Vivaldi II plumbed version. After the quick progression from Krups to Spidem to Livia 90 I wanted to upgrade. I debated the E61 or alternative for a long time. From a purely functional standpoint the Vivaldi has a lot of pluses for the money. In no particular order . . .
1. line-level preinfusion to experiment with (Personally, never noticed a huge difference)
2. Available integrated on/off timer. This has been great.
3. Very large steam boiler for its price category. Steaming is great.
4. I REALLY like having all the controls mounted high and forward. (when I look at a GS3 I wonder how often I would douse my hand with hot water pushing the wrong button)
5. Volumetric shot control. This has been very precise. I set the single button just to do a backflush, and use the double for espresso.
6. Relatively easy to change temps. Could be easier. Also, you can tweak offset as needed.
7. Plumbed in is great. And easy to do.
8. I was really surprised how much easier group maintenance was with a double boiler is than it was with the Livia heat exchanger. The Livia REALLY baked the residue into the screens. The Vivaldi runs cooler at the head. Makes a surprising difference.

From esthetics, it's your call. Personally, I like the look in a modern kitchen. Construction might not be up to the LMLM, but the price is about 1/2.

For me, I am really tempted to upgrade to the LMLM. Wish I could compare side by side, but that's not very easy.

I would contact espresso-outlet , a partner of chris coffee ; have special price on cimbali jr. casa if you contact them ...o r just call chris he probably give you the same discount price .... looks like the ultimate hx machine !

Looks like there's no love for HX machines anymore:-). DB PID seems in vogue.

This is going to be a tough decision.