ravco wrote:You two seem to have plunged head first into this espresso thing, but before you go spending lots of money on equipment I would slow down the pace, not panic and take methodological approach. You have just started, so you probably have a lot to learn on the manual side of things (dose, distribute, tamp, getting the flow rate right, consistency, adjusting grind and dose by taste ect.), which at this point will most likely have the biggest effect on shot quality. The manual side needs practice and finding out what you are looking for in espresso tastewise will need some time too.

Very important on the Silvia (I started with one two years ago) is getting the right temperature, either by temperature-surfing or by PID-ing. Get digital scales to get your dose and yield consistent. I would change the rocky for the Vario or not too old second hand Mazzer Super Jolly. The Silvia isn't easy and a single boiler is a bit of pain when it comes to making cappuccinos. But I still think she's not a bad choice to start with and there is a lot of information accessible to help you along. If you decide to stick to espresso, you can always upgrade and sell the Silvia without too much loss later on.

Thanks for the thoughtful response! We did jump in, I think! My wife's been super into coffee in general since we've been together (and probably before then), and she's really not a kitchen/food person, so I'm all for encouraging it

Ultimately, the reason that the 920XL seems attractive is that it feels to be a little more forgiving (PID, double boiler, brew head heater, pressurized baskets). Adding a PID to the Silvia would add another 250 or there about (over the 700 I already spent), would bring it to spitting distance to the 920XL. Do you think it's still a good upgrade, or a worthy additional $100?

We started out weighing the beans before the grind, and then after the grind (14g - 18g), as well as attempting to tamp out to 30LB using the scale press (inside the portafilter, and just the basket), as well as adjusting the grind from 0 - 10, in one notch increments, and thus far no luck. As we swapped the beans a few times, I'm surmising it's either the grind, portafilter basket (?) or temperature, or something subtle in the different things that I'm doing (tamp, grind/beans or weight)

My target right now is forgiveness, so we avoid the 'this is too complicated for us to really get into'. We'd like an espresso that's reasonable... but one that's drinkable, so we can focus on making it better, the quality of the beans, and the basics.

Any quirks about the M80 that you've experienced?

No, but at least one customer received a M80 with the wrong burrs. Want to make sure you get one with Espresso burrs. The one in question appeared to have burrs designed more for Drip grind. If single dosing, there is hardly any retention of grounds after sweeping out the output port and dosing chamber. There are many threads on the M80 here.

Ultimately, the reason that the 920XL seems attractive is that it feels to be a little more forgiving (PID, double boiler, brew head heater, pressurized baskets). Adding a PID to the Silvia would add another 250 or there about (over the 700 I already spent), would bring it to spitting distance to the 920XL. Do you think it's still a good upgrade, or a worthy additional $100?

If you're mostly making milk drinks-and especially if you enjoy entertaining-I'd say it's definitely worth $100 to go from a single boiler to a double boiler.

There will still be a learning curve, but compared to temp-surfing a Silvia, it should be a significantly shorter and easier one (especially if combined with a grinder upgrade).

(p.s. If you like cooking Sous Vide, you should feel right at home with a PID.)

neogenix wrote:Ultimately, the reason that the 920XL seems attractive is that it feels to be a little more forgiving (PID, double boiler, brew head heater, pressurized baskets). Adding a PID to the Silvia would add another 250 or there about (over the 700 I already spent), would bring it to spitting distance to the 920XL. Do you think it's still a good upgrade, or a worthy additional $100?

We started out weighing the beans before the grind, and then after the grind (14g - 18g), as well as attempting to tamp out to 30LB using the scale press (inside the portafilter, and just the basket), as well as adjusting the grind from 0 - 10, in one notch increments, and thus far no luck. As we swapped the beans a few times, I'm surmising it's either the grind, portafilter basket (?) or temperature, or something subtle in the different things that I'm doing (tamp, grind/beans or weight)

I'm sorry to only have limited experience with different espresso machines and I don't know the 920XL. A dual boiler is worth a lot if you mainly want to make cappuccinos and a PID makes things a lot easier. So before PID-ing the Silvia, go straight for a double boiler or heat-exchange. I would avoid the pressurized basket at all costs. You wouldn't learn much about espresso. If you have extra money, get a bottomless porterfilter, which will give you direct feed-back on your manual skills. The key word is consistency. Try to only change one variable at a time. I would choose one good quality bean or blend with a promising taste-description that you will be able to get freshly roasted when needed and stick to it, till you get the other variables controlled. Don't bother about the basket (the stock basket will do fine for the beginning) and the 30lb tamp-pressure, just be consistent. Doing Weiss Distribution Technique helped me a lot too.

I just went from a Silvia to the BDB 920, and I can tell you it is totally worth it. I had the Silvia for 2.5 years, and I can tell you I was getting more consistent shots right off the bat with the BDB as well as better texture for the milk. Although some might disagree but the smart grinder pro seem to be doing a good job as well. I plan to upgrade it in th future but it is also more consistent than the Ascaso I previously had. There is some clumping though.

I had an HX machine for quite a long time, then bought a double boiler. (Vetrano 2B Evo) An HX is a nice step above the Silvia, but a dual boiler with a PID makes everything MUCH easier and well worth the cost, especially the fact that the DBD is so inexpensive.

On the grinder, the Vario seems to be the #1 for the price for an electric on this forum. I have one, and it's very good. After reversing the chute flap, it makes grounds with no clumps at all.

For technique, you have to grind fine enough so that the shot takes a bare minimum of 25 seconds to a maximum of about 50 seconds to produce 30g +-10g. You're double basket (don't used pressurized baskets) should be loaded with 16-19g, (settle on 18g or 19g and don't change it while you test) then weight the shot as it comes out of the machine. Stop the shot when it weighs about 30g. This should take at least 25 seconds, but preferably 35-40 seconds. Tamp pressure isn't as important as making a level, well distributed pile of grounds before you tamps evenly and delicately so you don't crack the packed grounds. If 30g comes out in 15 seconds it's not going to taste good! You have to keep adjusting the grinder finer and finer. Turn the grinder on before you adjust finer. Sometimes it sounds like the teeth are starting to touch when you adjust so be very careful you don't cause damage. I had a Rocky and when it was fine enough, I could hear a slight metal and metal sound.

This happens with new grinders sometimes. I hear new owners of Varios having trouble grinding fine enough. Some grinders need to be used a bit before they find their center so to speak.

Definitely replace Rocky with a much better grinder mentioned in this thread that fits your budget (Vario, etc.). If you have enough remaining after the grinder purchase, then you should consider replacing Silvia with something better equipped to steam as well as pull shots.

I really enjoyed my Silvia back in the early days, even added a PID, but at the time there were few other comparable choices. You have all kinds of machines to choose from today. I also pulled espresso almost exclusively with Silvia since it didn't do well to brew and steam milk in tandem.

I used Rocky and Silvia for 10 years, up until this spring. The reason for the upgrade was that I had finally saved enough and could make it a priority. I share this because if I did not enjoy the coffee, mostly espresso, Americanos and cappuccino, I would have upgrade long before now. My Silvia and Rocky still work and has new owners enjoying them.

The thing I do not miss in the Rocky/Silvia setup is the recovery time for Silvia. Two double espressos in a row could be acceptable. As soon as a milk drink was made though there was a procedure to decide whether to steam milk first then temp surf Silvia back down to have her heat up again for the light to go off.

So what is said is true, there are other/newer machines that are easier now. However, whether you replace them or not you will need to learn some basics and make it as consistent as possible. Perhaps the following can help you decide how to focus your new setup so you can enjoy home espresso. It can be worth it, especially when you can make coffee better at home than in the city, and it is good enough that captures you wife's attention such that she abandons her favour frequented vendor and prefers your cup

1. Good beans you enjoy

2. Consist dose - weigh the beans and the pour.

3. Start with a basic recipe to get you going: 1:2 ratio of 14-16g coffee and 28-32g in cup

4. Use a scale each time - this was the best advice ever given to me and the one piece that took the longest for me to do.

5. Adjust grind to get this in 25-35sec. This can get you in the ball park, before you start with the flavour adjustments: still learning from this Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

6. In general try to remove as many variables as possible:

- DB can help with temperature
- scale can help with dose
- some tampers can help with consistent pressure (consistency can be more important than 30lbs). I use this one http://espro.ca/tamper

Having a good grinder you can afford can mean you now play with the grind setting. This does assume a machine giving fairly consistent pressure.

Let us know how it goes and Happy New Year!