DLC coating seasoned burrs - Page 2

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
User avatar
erics
Supporter ★
Posts: 6302
Joined: 19 years ago

#11: Post by erics »

A grinder with "pre seasoned" burrs, ready for use "out of the box" costs a bit more than 1k.
Well . . . OK . . . I disagree but hey, that's what forums are about.
Your statement seems contradictory
It was never meant to be.

Again I say:
There exists ZERO pics of grinder burrs on this site before/after so-called "seasoning". Possibly, someone can post same.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

User avatar
Terranova
Supporter ❤
Posts: 723
Joined: 12 years ago

#12: Post by Terranova »

erics wrote: There exists ZERO pics of grinder burrs on this site before/after "seasoning". Possible, someone can post same.
Perhaps you need some great foto equipment to see ~0,05mm tall edges on a burr set.
Same like it is hard or impossible to tell by a picture if the burrs are dull or not.
But who knows, maybe someone comes up with a picture for you.




leozava (original poster)
Supporter ♡
Posts: 384
Joined: 13 years ago

#13: Post by leozava (original poster) »

There exists ZERO pics of grinder burrs on this site before/after so-called "seasoning". Possibly, someone can post same.


What are you hoping to "see" in these pictures?? Not sure if you're trying to say that seasoning is a "myth" but I definitely noticed differences since receiving my grinder.

User avatar
erics
Supporter ★
Posts: 6302
Joined: 19 years ago

#14: Post by erics »

but I definitely noticed differences since receiving my grinder.
That's great and I'm truly happy for you.

Possibly more later (off to bed) but I am simply after some objective results rather than some well intentioned testimonials.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

User avatar
Bluecold
Posts: 1774
Joined: 16 years ago

#15: Post by Bluecold »

--edit:duplicate content from terranova's post--

Should've read this thread more carefully. But I do think the socratic coffee images on comparison with seasoned and unseasoned burrs are objective confirmations of the seasoning process.
LMWDP #232
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing."

User avatar
AssafL
Posts: 2588
Joined: 14 years ago

#16: Post by AssafL »

What does "seasoning burrs" actually mean?

Very sharp knives loose their edge rather quickly. I see no reason burrs not to loose their edge as quickly. Is that "blunting" called ""seasoning"? - albeit apart from salt & pepper I never understood what that word means. I do have iron frying pans that are "seasoned" with a layer of carbonized fats called a "patina". I have never seen patina on any of my burrs. I don't season any of my knife blades as well.

"Seasoning" is a strange word. Can it have an objective meaning when it comes to burrs?

Edit: I am trying to figure out If what I am saying is BS (or not). So I tried looking at the HRC of coffee burrs. From what I can find the hardness is 61-65 (depending if titanium coated etc). That is the equivalent of an Shiro ko (white paper) #2-#1. Shiro Ko knives (love 'em) do need sharpening less often than Ao Ko (or any stainless), but still once a week or two at most. So I am standing by the assertion that they blunt pretty quickly. If that is "seasoning"? Don't know.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

User avatar
yakster
Supporter ♡
Posts: 7319
Joined: 15 years ago

#17: Post by yakster »

Sharpening and seasoning burrs might be akin to honing and stropping straight razors. You can hone a straight razor to a sharp edge, but it won't necessarily be smooth or give a good shave until it's been properly stropped.

I'm not sure that the exact mechanism matters so much as the anecdotal evidence is that burrs are not stable until they've been broken in. Once broken in, you won't need to make grind adjustments as frequently and the grind quality will be stable.

Thinking of seasoning as dulling the burrs makes me think of resting coffee after roasting as staling. Many people agree that roasted coffee tastes and brews better after it's been rested for a certain time, but is that just staling? Does it matter?

I do think that it makes sense to judge a grinder, especially the burr set, after it's been broken in as that's going to represent the most representative grind quality of the burrs until they deteriorate and need to be replaced.
-Chris

LMWDP # 272

User avatar
AssafL
Posts: 2588
Joined: 14 years ago

#18: Post by AssafL »

Socratic coffee showed that worn burrs reduce TDS (and EY). Does TDS increase as burrs are seasoned?

Honing vs sharpening is a good analogy. But the improved cutting surface is honed. Not just sharpened. That is why butchers hone their knives constantly (and they use low HRC knives since they cut bones and cartilage). "Seasoning" sounds like an improvement. Having a non-honed knife doesn't sound like an improvement to me. Especially if TDS decreases.

It may be that you need to adjust less as the blades dull, since their geometry will change more slowly the duller they are. I just don't think of it as a positive side effect of dulling.

Coffee resting has only to do with Outgassing. If you pull a shot that is too young you'll have big bubbles in the crema. The flavor profile also somewhat looses a bit of harshness (but I am not sure that is a good thing). I don't care about bubbles in my crema.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

Marcelnl
Posts: 3831
Joined: 10 years ago

#19: Post by Marcelnl »

yakster wrote:Sharpening and seasoning burrs might be akin to honing and stropping straight razors. You can hone a straight razor to a sharp edge, but it won't necessarily be smooth or give a good shave until it's been properly stropped.

I'm not sure that the exact mechanism matters so much as the anecdotal evidence is that burrs are not stable until they've been broken in. Once broken in, you won't need to make grind adjustments as frequently and the grind quality will be stable.

Thinking of seasoning as dulling the burrs makes me think of resting coffee after roasting as staling. Many people agree that roasted coffee tastes and brews better after it's been rested for a certain time, but is that just staling? Does it matter?

I do think that it makes sense to judge a grinder, especially the burr set, after it's been broken in as that's going to represent the most representative grind quality of the burrs until they deteriorate and need to be replaced.
Think your comparison to stropping might make sense, if a new burr set would have some minor slivers of steel attached to the edges after machining the first period of use may just get rid of that. That is what stropping does too, you get the leading, very thin part of steel that is attached to a blade off by folding it one way and then the other..I think it is likely, but by no means a fact..., that this leading edge may cause inconsistent grimd patterns that improve aft some kilos have passed through the burrs set...burr manufacturers would probably know as they will have the capability to compare blades and assess wear these days...
LMWDP #483

jpboyt
Posts: 220
Joined: 14 years ago

#20: Post by jpboyt »

Seasoning would be the process of bringing the burr to a stable mechanical state. Burrs are produced by machining the teeth, with the final teeth being ground after heat treatment. So when you install the burrs in your grinder, they still have small burrs hanging on the edges. Some of theses are visible to the naked eye. Some of them take a microscope or magnifying glass to see. At initial use the hanging burrs along with the steel molecules at the absolute corner rapidly disappear. This leaves a small radius that is fairly stable when evaluated for grind consistency. As the burr wears it takes more and more steel removal to increase the corner radius. Look at a dull burr and you can see the tooth edge shining back at you. Easiest to see on a TiN (titanium nitride) coated burr. The steel substrate shows through as silver. By the way, there are no "Titanium" burrs, only TiN coated burrs.
Flat burrs start out with a large percentage of the particles being sheared. Note that the final teeth are configured much like scissors. As the burr edges break down there is less cutting and more fracturing being done. When the burrs are totally dull, the coffee particles are reduced in size more by rolling and fracturing than any kind of cutting action. This rolling action is what produces the majority of the heat and subsequent clogging. Sharp burrs are one of coffee's best friends.
jpboyt

Post Reply