JerDGold wrote:Just to toss in something I read...I think from Perger as well. Don't try to adjust your flow rate and taste by adjusting coffee input. It may seem easier because you don't have to mess with your grinder, but changing your coffee input weight means you're going to be looking at a whole new recipe. Pick a static coffee weight and adjust your grind to find the best taste. If you can't find what you're looking for, change your coffee weight and then start over with grind adjustments. Make sense?

You're dangerously close to talking in absolutes here. There is no one way to solve a problem and telling people to do it this way is nonsense. I have adjusted by grind and by dose and don't really have a preference either way. I think perger's opinion is that each basket has an optimal dose and has little to do with anything else. Also take into consideration that he mostly deals with the finicky VST baskets, which also influence this i'm sure.

You get unique results when you updose and downdose a basket that you may like and youll miss out if you follow the herd blindly.

brianl wrote:You're dangerously close to talking in absolutes here.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. You're right. I'd like to amend my post by saying that I have taken that advice and found it to provide me more consistency, and my be advice for the OP to try out awhile. See if it fits. Thanks for keeping me honest!

Changing dose complicates things unnecessarily.

Tamping at 'x pressure' is outdated dogma; look at the experiments Socratic Coffee have done if you don't believe me. Just be consistent - that's the main thing.

Grind finer until it starts to taste over extracted or it starts to go from tasting good to tasting under extracted again.

Increase output weight if it tastes too thick and heavy. Light roasts struggle to extract fully at above 50% dry dose/wet dose. Slightly more diluted shots also let us perceive complex flavours more easily.

JP

brianl wrote:You're dangerously close to talking in absolutes here. There is no one way to solve a problem and telling people to do it this way is nonsense. I have adjusted by grind and by dose and don't really have a preference either way. I think perger's opinion is that each basket has an optimal dose and has little to do with anything else. Also take into consideration that he mostly deals with the finicky VST baskets, which also influence this i'm sure.

You get unique results when you updose and downdose a basket that you may like and youll miss out if you follow the herd blindly.

I would suggest that it is much less about absolutes and much more about taking a logical, scientific, mathematical approach.

To look at it another way, let us present both sides in as simplistic a view as I can, and then the ramifications:

Perger: Dose should be set based on desired volume or basket requirements and only change it if you want a different volume output. Adjust each variable that you are able to control one at a time until you reached desired taste based on extraction and strength. He does, if you listen, concede that a change in dose "will affect flow rate, puck saturation rate, extraction temperature, extraction yield, strength and extraction evenness. Probably other stuff too." Thus, if you change dose, you have changed a variety of variables, many in unpredictable and unknown ways.

Brianl: Changing the dose can create a variety of changes and that "You get unique results when you updose and downdose a basket that you may like and youll miss out if you follow the herd blindly."

Thus, my position here is that you are, in fact, correct in that point. However, by virtue of you being correct, we also see that Perger is also correct.

in order to systematically dial in a bean, you must move as few variables at a time- in a specific direction toward a desired target--as possible. If you change dose you will change a variety of other factors (which IS true, and is why you might find some unique results), and that is worth experimenting with, but is NOT a systematic dialing in of a coffee to reach a specific desired outcome-which can only be a specific spot on the extraction/strength curve based on your particular taste. Pergers information is even more relevant when considering a commercial setting that must meet specific output requirements as well as working within the physical limitations of the baskets on hand.

Furthermore, if you do change dose, and you say "yuck" there really are only a few options left.

--You can choose to explore the "unique results when you updose and downdose." So you didnt nail a perfect balance of variables on your first attempt at that dose, so you must then dial in that dose in a systematic way to determine what that particular dose offers, if anything, differently.

--Or, of course, one could simply say "I didnt nail a perfect balance that time, it must be the dose responsible and not the myriad of other factors at play" but then, as you say how many unique results would a barista miss out on with that attitude?

I am not saying this to be confrontational, though I feel my post might be coming across that way on rereading, but to say that you are both correct, and that what Perger said is, in a sense, absolute, because it can be applied even within the context of your method or any other recipe-simply to improve efficiency.

Mike, if I understand correctly from what you're saying, your problem is that some shots are sour and some bitter. So it sounds like a consistency problem. Like others suggested being precise with the amount of coffee that you use down to the gram is important. If you're still getting inconsistent shots, you might want to look into diagnosing using a naked portafilter. It helped me really perfect my shots and focus on the right variable. For example, the reason for the bitter/sour shots might be poor distribution and a naked portafilter will reveal any issues there. It also helped me understand if I'm using the right dose for my basket/machine combination. I use the 18g VST baskets and I find that on my izzo duetto 16.5g works best. If I dose 18g I get uneven extractions, which result in inconsistency and bitter/sour shots you described.

Thanks for all the replies so far. Very informative!

Yes Kosta, I should pick up a naked portafilter, and maybe try 16g dose as well. Been weighing inputs and outputs within a tenth of a gram lately... Seems a bit better.

Still wondering if I should turn the temperature down. 204 in the cup is hot I think, not sure what I should be looking for in the Styrofoam cup?

204 in styrofoam is certainly too hot. Been like 6 l years since I did a styrofoam cup but I want to say upper 180s is a solid place to expect it.no fast and hard number on something like that though,

I get right under 200 with the styrofoam cup, say just above 195ish, and I'm set at 200. Using a very accurate thermometer though and preheating the styrofoam cup to combat heat loss.