Ok.. Another question:
In my calibration - I following the below link where I calibrated for 25gr of extraction.
Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

After calling tech support of the supplies - they pointed out that the correct setting should be more than twice (2 ounces) - with the below link. stating the I was calibrating for a tighter than a ristretto:
from this site too..:
Good Extraction, Good Espresso - Espresso Guide


Please advise ?
Thanks!

Many times when people talk about shots in ounces they're measuring the volume of the shot including the crema. Since the amount of crema varies and eventually collapses, it's much easier and more straightforward to weigh the shot in grams. Did the tech support team you called specify if they were talking about measuring two ounces by volume or by weight? It's best to avoid the confusion of weighing your dose and judging your output by volume and just stick to weighing both the dose and the shot. The following thread will illustrate the sort of confusion that happens: Espresso weight vs volume and crema.

Hi,
I have no clue .. she pointed me to the second link I've posted... and yes .. I am coming from the metric system and I know the ounces is volume that why it is so difficult system to work in.

I measured everything to extraction in grams ... I've measured a single cup of 28-30 grams of extraction.. I.E. a ratio of ~1:2 coffee grind (once 12gr and once 16 gr) to each shot was weighted 28-30 grams..In ounces that comes to 1 once. . . which the tech stated "that is too slow" .

Thanks !

You have tried going for a shorter extraction time by grinding a little less fine and/or lowering the temperature of the PID?

I have owned the Classika for about 3 weeks now, have only been using it with a 20g VST basket and bottomless portafilter, so I made it a little hard on myself as a start to get things right (first machine, only used my ROK manual before). I find it's possible to get sour or bitter imbalances shots, or really good ones, by only adjusting grind very slightly. When I do things right they taste good, depending on the ratio a little bit. I find it can be a little hard getting a 35 sec shot be balanced as a normal 1:2 with my beans. It seems as they like being pulled as a 1:2 in 30-32 or so secs. If I go more ristretto, 1:1 or 1:1,5 it will be really thick and sweet and not often balanced towards bitter. But if I pull out too much from the puck or something it gets a little bitter and harsh, seems like the VST can let me extract too much. Don't know with the stock basket.

Actually I'm going to switch from 20g to the 18g and use the spouted portafilter from tomorrow on. Focus more on taste, just pulling the shot, and less on looking at the bottom while doing so. If it tastes good it probably wasn't annuneven or channeling extraction. Bottomless has taught me lots, and I'm going to use it every now and then, but I find it slightly irritating that the high fall for the drops/stream down into a wide cup is a little messy. It's not channeling, only that it goes everywhere when it hits a wide cup low. If I use a narrow cup on top of another cup it actually taste better more often when the stream goes straight into the cup, and while it works I'm ready for a change.

Also 18g ridged instead of 20g ridgeless for some reasons: My stomach don't fancy too many espresso's in a day, so while learning and pulling might just go down a couple grams on each. Plus I can go up to 19 instead of 21 which really is a triple. Also to check if tamping is looking level compared to the ridge.

I don't think I've ever heard steam coming from my Classika PID when flushing, unless when in steam mode, even when on for over an hour, and as it's kept at correct temp and not over it, I consider it a warming flush more than a cooling flush.

Uhhh I've always been told if you really want drier pucks, then updose, which has always worked for me... Though, I have to wonder how much your three way valve (it's cleanliness and efficacy in clearing back pressured liquid rapidly) plays in the process as well as if there is headroom in the basket before extraction begins. My guess points to, "yes, yes it does."

Theoretically, if you used a higher pressure during extraction this would also aid the dryness of the puck (creating greater back pressure). Of course pressure if always a function of the filter media where you have pressure escaping (in this case the coffee bed) and I'm still not convinced measuring boiler pressure is the same as pressure at the puck (or a scace for that matter).

BTW dry vs wet puck arguments should be moot/irrelevant if the coffee tasted better with a soggy puck. some people want to make the argument wet puck=defective extraction dynamic, but there are other factors effecting the result than just grind and dose, including the filter media of the basket itself.


I kinda wanna get a Saeco pressurized PF now and give it a second chance for experimentation purps. yes it ruins crema's texture and yes, it theoretically can cause over extraction by dwelling longer, but what if you tweaked other variables to shift the result into something favourable. I could also see the technology being useful for aeropress extractions (albeit at a different relief calibration)...

Wet pucks aside...

A bitter pull stems from one of two things, the bean/roast is inherently bitter; or, the barista is over extracting.

Over extraction, which seems likely here, results from brewing too hot, dosing too low, and/or grinding too fine. It's hard to isolate variables from a remote location, but in your case my money is on a combination of all three.

Forget what the PID reads and start to dial in the coffee for temperature. Keep reducing it until the extraction tastes sour -- then add a degree or two until you get the best balance you can. We'll talk about resetting your offset once you learn to temp by palate.

I'm not sure if you habitually dose under 16g, but every basket is different and the lessons you learned from your Gaggia and Silvia no longer apply. Since you're trying to follow the advice from the FAQ, it's very likely you're making things more difficult than necessary by under dosing your Classika's basket. If you're using the stock ECM basket, start with a 17g dose, ground to whatever degree of fineness will net you a 34g (+/-2g) shot within 25 - 33sec.

Ultra low doses are a way of establishing an edge of the "envelope" for dosing range, not normative. You should also be aware that Jim -- the guy who wrote the FAQ -- likes working with much lower doses than most of us. And by the way, a too fine grind coupled with a too low dose nearly always nets a loose puck.

It's been a truism of espresso advice forever that a properly pulled double is two ounces (volume) in thirty seconds; that's the advice you got from your retailer's tech; and in the sense that it's longstanding conventional wisdom, it's not bad advice. But, especially here at H-B, we've come to realize that volume is only a metaphor for weight, and not a very good one at that.

Cutting the shot by weight is a great deal more accurate than volume, but -- absent a rare combination of great grinder, great technique, and precise volumetric dosing -- still not as accurate as cutting when the "blonde point" or stream arc (from a spouted pf) indicates the proper level of extraction. But it takes practice to learn to recognize a blonde point the color of which varies from coffee to coffee. So, for now, let's start with hitting the correct extraction ratio within a reasonable time frame; and afterwards -- if you want -- we can talk about the visual metrics of extraction.

While you're fooling around with all of this dialing-in stuff, taste by the spoonful (mix the crema in before tasting), not the cup. That way you can sample quite a few pulls before becoming over-caffeinated.

Finally, relax. I've been following your recent spate of posts in several threads and sense a lot of frustration and not a little panic. Don't worry, you'll get there.

B'seder,
Rich

Matt Perger's latest Barista Hustle post was on the very topic of soggy pucks.
http://baristahustle.com/for-a-good-puck/