SCAA or COE Android Cupping App?

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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boar_d_laze
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#1: Post by boar_d_laze »

Want. Got?

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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another_jim
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#2: Post by another_jim »

Cupping has even more standards than HTML code, and even less compliance. Every roaster and lab I've cupped at uses a slightly different roast, protocol, and scoring form -- so much so that it takes someone a few days of cupping to get used to each. The COE, where some of these factors vary country to country, diplomatically calls this "calibration".

Therefore:
-- cup a lot
-- come up with the procedure that works for you.

.... That's how the real pros do it. If you boast how your cupping conforms to "industry standards," they'll laugh at you :wink:

Is standardization even desirable? I do not believe it is; here's why:

Most scoring systems consists of 0 to 10 scores in several categories. If there are five categories, people will add 50 to get to 100; if there are eight categories, they'l add 20. etc. A great coffee scores 10 in each category, but there is a difference how an average coffee is scored, with lower scores when there are few categories, and higher scores when there are many. The idea is that a C grade coffee will get about 65 to 75 points; a basic clean specialty grade coffee about 80 to 85, and a fine coffee 85 and more. This means that in a five category plus 50 system, you give the C grade 4 points and the best coffees 7.5 to 10; whereas in a ten category plus zero system, you'd give the C grade 6 to 7, and the best coffees 8.5 to 10.

This set of scoring systems is open to imbalances when there are many judges with backgrounds in different scoring systems using the same one -- the ones who give a small differences between their highest and lowest scoring coffees have less influence than the ones who give large differences.

Quite comically, both the COE and SCAA judge the judges by how close they score to the average consensus. This means that the experienced judges, who enjoy the gig, game the system by scoring all entries within a very narrow range of scores close to the average. Given this ill considered QC standard; they will always rate as great judges even if they happen to score the worst coffee highest and the best lowest, as long as they keep all their scores close to average.

The consequence is that the judges the COE and SCAA considers most qualified are those with the least influence on the outcome. Only the clueless judges, who score in an unrestrained manner, and whose scores show real love and hate, decide the winners and losers. But the quality control system ensures they either change their ways or do not get invited back. I'm not certain what the consequence is; but if each contest's deciding judges are the newbies, it seems there would be a great deal of randomness.

The take away is that the scores of a successful roaster who cups regularly will be more reliable than the high end competition scores, regardless of the protocol; since whatever the protocol, it will be applied consistently, by the same group of people, who know their market.

Is there evidence for this scenario? There is, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth ...

If you look at the jury scores and auction prices at coffee auctions, they are uncorrelated except for the few superstar coffees. This means the buyers treat the jury score versus their own taste in exactly the way called for given this description. If the jury scores were really of higher quality than each roasters assessment, the buyers would show them more deference in their bidding. The complete disregard buyers have for the jury scores is why I think the auctions remain valuable. When you buy COE and other auction coffees, look at who bid and how much, not the jury score.

These simple facts should be enough be inoculation enough against believing in the magic of standardized cupping apps.
Jim Schulman
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boar_d_laze (original poster)
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#3: Post by boar_d_laze (original poster) »

Thanks Jim.

I'm not trying to cup to some non-existent industry standard. In fact, I don't often cup in either "official" SCAA or COE ways because I'm usually evaluating roasts as much as beans. However, a soft form would be convenient for me for archiving and associating with with (hundreds of) roast plots.

In a perfect world, I'd like to use something like whatever Ken Davids uses. But as I'm already familiar with the SCAA, COE and a couple of their derivative forms, and already use the SCAA paper form and tasting wheels, I'd like to find something along those lines.

PC would be good, Android better.

As it is, the Android cupping apps I know about, e.g., Cupping Lab, are oriented towards people who want to keep track of commercial offerings and too simplistic for my needs.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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Boldjava
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#4: Post by Boldjava »

Rich

I have my own protocol but no app. I think points awarded by SCAA protocol for aroma and fragrance is not helpful to me. I note defects or characteristics but don't score them.

I have been looking at Intelli's and looking for ways to incorporate it or build on it. http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/fil ... mFinal.pdf

I find that I award a great deal for balanced cups and really lean on complexity. Those two factors are probably overweighted on my mental algorithms.
-----
LMWDP #339

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endlesscycles
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#5: Post by endlesscycles »

-Marshall Hance
Asheville, NC

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boar_d_laze (original poster)
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#6: Post by boar_d_laze (original poster) »

Boldjava wrote:I have my own protocol but no app. I think points awarded by SCAA protocol for aroma and fragrance is not helpful to me. I note defects or characteristics but don't score them. I have been looking at Intelli's and looking for ways to incorporate it or build on it... I find that I award a great deal for balanced cups and really lean on complexity. Those two factors are probably overweighted on my mental algorithms.
Dave,

We have so much in common, you and I. Mental Algorithms R Us.

Is your tasting/scoring evolving now that you've moved to more sophisticated roasters?
endlesscycles wrote:here: https://tastify.com/
Marshall,

Thanks. Fantastic answer in the spirit of the question. I'm wondering if I'll get enough from it to justify the recurring fee, but the first month's free so...

Added: Tried it. Great software. Me likee. I blasted through a cupping of some Los Congos Pac B to get familiar with the software. On an unrelated search, I went to CR and stumbled across a commercial offering of Los Congos Pac roasted by Old Soul to a similar, C+ Agtron. KD's descriptors and score came out very similar to mine (he gave it 94, I gave it 93; he tasted bananas, I didn't; etc). It's either a little bit of validation or goes to show that stupid minds run in the same silly circles.

More Added: Re mobile: Very tab friendly. I'd find entering the bean name and other written information cumbersome on a phone, even one as large as my Note. However for those who do a lot of texting, it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Thanks again!

The next step is to try and figure out some sort of legitimate group purchase to cut the per person cost and make use of all of the features. Perhaps through R&L or something.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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endlesscycles
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#7: Post by endlesscycles »

Thanks for the initial review. I saw this in my Twitter feed earlier today and couldn't find the actual product. Went back, found it, signed up. Wow, it's really pretty good. $10/month is possibly worth it to my penny pinching self if I actually put it to use. We'll see how I feel at the end of the month. I'd like an app version, bit it's surprisingly good for a mobile optimized site.
-Marshall Hance
Asheville, NC

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[creative nickname]
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#8: Post by [creative nickname] »

I vacillate between using catador or the roastmaster apps for iOS but have been frustrated with both, to the extent that I often just do notes on paper (which I inevitably can't find when I need them). Now I'm curious to try this tastify system, although paying a monthly fee really seems a bit extravagant. I guess it is worth paying for one month to get a sense of it; I'll report back after I give it a trial run.
LMWDP #435

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heavyduty
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#9: Post by heavyduty »

endlesscycles wrote:here: https://tastify.com/
I just happened to see this earlier today on Daily Coffee News: http://dailycoffeenews.com/2015/04/06/n ... of-flavor/ The app is being unveiled at the SCAA Event later this week.
Tomorrow came sooner than expected.

Paul