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To tamp or not to tamp - Page 4

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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by AndyS on Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:53 am

timo888 wrote:I am not setting levers against pumps but pointing out that low brew pressure and high brew pressure produce different results in the cup. (If you can play the pump pressure like a violin, great. ) Low brew pressure, in my experience, allows the more fleeting and delicate aromatics to emerge -- floral scents, for example -- not overpowered by the more intense flavors and aromas that get extracted at higher brew pressure.

And by 'low', I mean 3-6 bar.


I appreciate your statement not to set levers up against pumps, because I think that kind of narrow-minded approach is usually counterproductive.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about the delicate flavors, though. You appear to say that you value delicate flavors above all else, and are willing to sacrifice more intense flavors and aromas.

This is all, unfortunately, just theoretical, because we aren't standing side by side tasting from the same demitasse. Talking conceptually, however, I imagine you'd agree that both the intense and the delicate aspects of espresso are important, and we all try to find a pleasing compromise.

In Illy's book, Petracco has an interesting take on the pressure vs quality conundrum:

"The pressure value universally applied in professional espresso preparations, where a centrifugal pump is employed, is 9 relative atmospheres....This value results from a series of 'trial and error' attempts in the early years of espresso machine technology, whose results were measured by consumer satisfaction. It is interesting to point out how an alert espresso operator is in a good position to test any slight variation in coffee preparation procedures, judging immediately from the consumer's face (a genuine sensor) and drawing useful indications for further trials. In the course of time, such a method has established the optimal pressure level that minimizes failure possibilities in obtaining a perfect espresso."
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by timo888 on Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:22 pm

AndyS wrote:I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about the delicate flavors, though. You appear to say that you value delicate flavors above all else, and are willing to sacrifice more intense flavors and aromas.


You infer correctly that I "value delicate flavors" but incorrectly when you infer that I value them "above all else". It depends on what kind of drink I want to pull on a given day, what coffee I have, etc etc.

I am simply pointing out what in my experience has been the most marked taste difference resulting from relatively lower brew pressure versus 9 bar or greater.

Regards
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by prof_stack on Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:04 am

Hey, while you smart guys are way up there discussing pressure and theoretical stuff and quoting Lilly, I've been expermenting tamping with just a smoothing of the top surface, probably less than 1.5#.

The Gaggia Factory kicked out some very smooth shots with good pressure needed on the full down-stroke to get proper crema and the shot finished. The pre-infusion must set the puck up for the full stroke. I like it a lot.

Just a couple data points...
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Tamp

Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by mcpilot on Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:51 am

I just got my 51mm tamper... Perfect fit for the Factory


My settings are Kitchen aid bur grinder set at 6

Full force tamp with the double basket full


The results are excellent


BTW The Kitchen Aid grinder is very acceptable for espresso, contrary to some beliefs... I have a Rocky as well....
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by narc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:52 pm

Returning or some may consider regressing to basics. I'm done for now in messing around with tamp pressures.
Since outside of wasting a lot of coffee trying to hit the spot adjusting the grind level for heavy or my pseudo no-tamp there seems to be no real distinct "better" shot pulled. Dosing 15gm+/- 1gm, hopefully even distribution, #30 tamp, adjust grind to yield desired extraction dynamics and brew ratio.

I've convinced myself as some other HB members have noted that tamp pressure is probably one of the least important variables in pulling a quality shot. Sort of reminds me to wax selection from my Nordic ski racing days. Too much time & thought for the least important element.
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by timo888 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:17 pm

narc wrote:I've convinced myself as some other HB members have noted that tamp pressure is probably one of the least important variables in pulling a quality shot.



Then why tamp? :roll:
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by grong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:46 pm

narc wrote:Too much time & thought for the least important element.


I'd like to think the time was well spent, to prove not quite definitively, but to one's own satisfaction, the relative significance of tamp.
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by Coffeecritter on Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:35 pm

Just to throw in another variable: levelness. (Is that a word?")

I recently started using one of Les' "Ridgeline" tampers. Guarantees a level tamp to a constant depth below the edge of the basket. I must say that my shots seem to me to be much more consistent - even when jumping around between grinds for decaf and caffeinated beans.

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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by narc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:21 pm

timo888 wrote:Then why tamp? :roll:


I am having problems pulling shot on the MicroCasa a Leva with my pseudo no-tamp. Just using the tamper weight to level the coffee. Might as well use the RegBarber tamper I have invested in.

grong wrote:I'd like to think the time was well spent, to prove not quite definitively, but to one's own satisfaction, the relative significance of tamp.


It was an interesting exercise. Revealed I have some work to do on pulling no tamp shots on the MicroCasa a Leva. Might give the light tamp another shot in the future. If other people have been pulling killer shots on the MCaL using a no tamp then it's obviously a problem with probably my dosing, distribution, grind level. Another challenge in the world of Lever Machines.
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by prof_stack on Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:39 am

narc wrote:It was an interesting exercise. Revealed I have some work to do on pulling no tamp shots on the MicroCasa a Leva. Might give the light tamp another shot in the future. If other people have been pulling killer shots on the MCaL using a no tamp then it's obviously a problem with probably my dosing, distribution, grind level. Another challenge in the world of Lever Machines.


That about sums it up, doesn't it? Have fun getting those variables synched! :)
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Link to "To tamp or not to tamp"by timo888 on Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:42 am

narc wrote:... using a no tamp then it's obviously a problem with probably my dosing, distribution, grind level.


Yes, indeed. When you have merely settled the basket contents with a couple of gentle raps, the tamp is out of the equation and the distribution has been addressed by the settling, so you can focus on the dose and grind.


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