To tamp or not to tamp - Page 3

['Q']

(1) The puck is never perfectly evenly distributed.

You can get acceptably close if you try, hence all the touted distribution methods posted all over the place. It's one of those "holy grail" things that some of the obsessive people strive for.

(2) Since water flow into the grouphead commences as single droplets, it is NOT evenly applied at the beginning, which is the most crucial time.

If there are mere droplets forming, then there's insufficient pressure to disturb much of anything... no? Jets, on the other hand, would be problematic and have been demonstrated as such where I've seen posts complaining of "craters" in the top of the puck like this one.

[timo888]

... we've seen timo expound on the virtues of the "tampless tamp". I would like him to try dialing in a hard tamp, then have him describe HOW the results in the cup differ.

Way too much work for me, peacecup, and beside the point, which is this: tamping is unnecessary if you have a good micro-adjustable or stepless grinder. You can get an excellent cup with no tamp whatsoever or with a very light tamp -- i.e. ~300g according to my little scale (*) -- just enough to create some headroom. I encourage others to decide for themselves whether tamping improves their espresso. If you want to tamp, it's your prerogative.

Regards
Timo

(*) for the metrically challenged, that's less than one pound.

[grong]

I encourage others to decide for themselves whether tamping improves their espresso.

Way too much work, when an expert could tell us the best way! No, really it is fun (for me) to hear what others theorize and discover, and ultimately to taste my very own cup.

[peacecup]

Timo,

That is a silly response, from a HB'er whom I consider to be among our most valuable contributors. I am interested in hearing your opinion of how tamping changes the the flavor or other characteristics of espresso, because I value your knowledge and experience. If you feel that knocking the grinder up a couple of notches and exerting 30 lbs of pressure for a few seconds is more than you a willing to contribute to this discussion, we'll have to go it without you. Hopefully there will be a few others with adventurous spirit enough to give it a try and report back.

I'll be trying it myself this weekend, in between bouts with the quickset mortar and trowel whilst I tile my sunroom.

Peace,

PC

[peacecup]

Oh, and BTW, tamping is necessary if one wants to cram two pounds of salami into a one-pound skin (read 17g of coffee into a 14g basket!)

PC

[timo888]

Timo,

That is a silly response, from a HB'er whom I consider to be among our most valuable contributors. I am interested in hearing your opinion of how tamping changes the the flavor or other characteristics of espresso, because I value your knowledge and experience. If you feel that knocking the grinder up a couple of notches and exerting 30 lbs of pressure for a few seconds is more than you a willing to contribute to this discussion, we'll have to go it without you. Hopefully there will be a few others with adventurous spirit enough to give it a try and report back.

I'll be trying it myself this weekend, in between bouts with the quickset mortar and trowel whilst I tile my sunroom.

Peace,

PC

So much depends on the temperature, peacecup, that I would not want to ascribe differences in quality of the cup to the tamp or no tamp when using a pressurized boiler lever machine to produce espresso shots one after the other. With the Peppina, whose brew temperature can be accurately controlled, a difference of only ~ 2 degrees F. meant intense blueberries -- or none at all -- with an S.O. roast from Novo. But Peppina does not do very well with a heavy tamp, in my experience. Moreover, Peppina is inaccessible because in front of the table where Peppina sits there's a stack of WEDI waterproof tile backer boards and a WEDI presloped shower base (http://www.wedicorp.com), a toilet, a sink, valves, plywood, dimensioned lumber, pipe fittings, PVC, boxes of insulated duct for the fan, some batts of Dow Corning SafeTouch polyester insulation (no mask, no gloves, no glass splinters!), etc etc. I too am doing a DIY project. My sense of adventure has its hands full, at the moment, with the DWV rough-in in the upstairs bathroom, and getting the venting right.

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

Timo,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. If, in fact, temp. is that important (and I'll believe that it is), then you are correct in noting that differences between tamp styles would probably be indistinguishable. I'm off to pick up the kid, but I'll return to these very valid issues soon,

Cheers,

PC

[AndyS]

If there are mere droplets forming, then there's insufficient pressure to disturb much of anything... no? .

Q, I think we'd both agree that this point isn't important enough to maintain an extended discussion. But, FWIW...as Schomer presented it, the whole point of a 30 lb tamp and polish was to be sure the puck would not be disturbed by the initial flow.

Yes, the surface of a timo puck (tamped with less than 300 g of force) will be disturbed by mere droplets.

[AndyS]

With the Peppina, whose brew temperature can be accurately controlled, a difference of only ~ 2 degrees F. meant intense blueberries -- or none at all -- with an S.O. roast from Novo.

Oh c'mon Timo.

How many times did you go back and forth in temp to test this? The blueberry coffees are often so variable that consecutive extractions at the same temp can easily produce the same observation.

[timo888]

Oh c'mon Timo.

How many times did you go back and forth in temp to test this? The blueberry coffees are often so variable that consecutive extractions at the same temp can easily produce the same observation.

I did much temperature testing with the Peppina and Caravel last year, both of them unpressurized kettles, the Caravel a manual lever whose brew pressure varied and the Peppina, of course, a spring lever, whose brew pressure is consistent from shot to shot if the tamp is consistent. With the Caravel, I was pulling mainly lungo shots, and quite gently, probably ~4 bar if I had to guess.

I found the flavors on either machine to be temperature-dependent; I could get bright blueberries at a cooler temperature; they'd fade with a hotter shot; but would return when the temp was lowered again.

I have my doubts whether a Silvia, no matter how tricked out, can produce temp-stable shots at the cooler end of the espresso range, as Peppina and Caravel can. Also, the Silvia's greater pump-driven brew pressure won't bring out the more delicate coffee notes as well as a machine with a lower pressure.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

Q, I think we'd both agree that this point isn't important enough to maintain an extended discussion. But, FWIW...as Schomer presented it, the whole point of a 30 lb tamp and polish was to be sure the puck would not be disturbed by the initial flow.

Yes, the surface of a timo puck (tamped with less than 300 g of force) will be disturbed by mere droplets.

The medium is several centimeters thick. I do not know what ill effects you attribute to the "surface" being "disturbed" by "mere droplets". Just how much damage do you think the puck sustains? Get into a time machine, go back to 1963, and try peddling these "fragile puck" theories in Taormina. When you get back to 2007, let me know what they told you, and if you need any Sicilian gestures interpreted.

Regards
Timo

[AndyS]

I did much temperature testing with the Peppina and Caravel last year, both of them unpressurized kettles, the Caravel a manual lever whose brew pressure varied and the Peppina, of course, a spring lever, whose brew pressure is consistent from shot to shot if the tamp is consistent. With the Caravel, I was pulling mainly lungo shots, and quite gently, probably ~4 bar if I had to guess.

I found the flavors on either machine to be temperature-dependent; I could get bright blueberries at a cooler temperature; they'd fade with a hotter shot; but would return when the temp was lowered again.

This is interesting, Timo. 99% of the time when I read about the temperature dependence of espresso flavors, the writer repeats the same tired old conventional "wisdom": cool temps produce sour flavors, high temps produce bitter flavors. But I've generally found that slightly high temps dull flavors without adding appreciably to bitterness (as you report here).

I have my doubts whether a Silvia, no matter how tricked out, can produce temp-stable shots at the cooler end of the espresso range, as Peppina and Caravel can. Also, the Silvia's greater pump-driven brew pressure won't bring out the more delicate coffee notes as well as a machine with a lower pressure.

I don't doubt that you have doubts, but of course, you haven't used my tricked-out Silvia. When I first published data from a WBC test of her temperature stability, to my amazement Ken Fox complained that I "cheated" because the test was run at 198F (which was too low for his taste). In fact, I ran it there quite innocently because that was the temp I had been using for a particular coffee that day. Personally, I think she would be just about as stable at any temp from 160-220F.

Try pulling shots at 220F on your Peppina!

The thing I cannot do with this machine is vary the inherent temperature profile, which has resisted my half-hearted attempts to vary it. I haven't put much effort into it because the temperature effects with the coffees I use are not nearly as dramatic as you report, so I've kind of lost interest.

If I experienced a drastic change from a 2F temp variance, I would get interested again. I suppose that Novo coffee is no longer available?

Also, my Silvia's PID-controlled piston pump can reliably pull shots at varied profiles anywhere from 3.5 bar to 8.5 bar. Currently she is set to peak early at 8.5 bar and gradually decline to 6.8 bar. Hmmm, sort of like a piston machine.

[AndyS]

The medium is several centimeters thick. I do not know what ill effects you attribute to the "surface" being "disturbed" by "mere droplets". Just how much damage do you think the puck sustains?

I don't, and I don't care if one can't clearly taste the difference. That's why I specifically stated that I don't think this particular tangent is worth a lot more discussion.

Sorry, I realize one post too late that you take great pride in the integrity of your puck, and I would NEVER seek to offend your puck's integrity.

[timo888]

I don't, and I don't care if one can't clearly taste the difference. That's why I specifically stated that I don't think this particular tangent is worth a lot more discussion.

Sorry, I realize one post too late that you take great pride in the integrity of your puck, and I would NEVER seek to offend your puck's integrity.

Ah ... I inferred from your comment about the "surface" of a lightly or untamped-merely-settled "timo puck" being "disturbed...by mere droplets" that you thought this was somehow significant. In my experience, the <#1 tamp produces excellent results...if not, I wouldn't be saying that tamping is not de rigueur and a choice the barista has the freedom to make.

It's peacecup, BTW, who takes pride in the puck's integrity. Me, I don't care much if at all about the puck's private affairs -- as long as the extraction was good -- though even my <1#-tamped pucks typically fall intact out of the basket into the knockbox....they don't pour into the knockbox in a slurry unless I've pulled molto lungo.

Re the (blend/roast-dependent) benefits of lower temperatures:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...o-t2148.html#19779


That is a tricked-out Silvia you have. If you can control pressure and temp in that manner, the only factor that would hold me back from recommending without reservation to you the untamped-merely-settled or < 1# tamp would be the way the water hits the puck, which is different with a standard pump, with or without gicleur, than it is with a lever.

Novo S.O. coffees are still available AFAIK, though not the Wild Forest Tula espresso.

Regards
Timo

[AndyS]

the only factor that would hold me back from recommending without reservation to you the untamped-merely-settled or < 1# tamp would be the way the water hits the puck, which is different with a standard pump, with or without gicleur, than it is with a lever.

OK, I'll bite. Despite all the hoopla on this site, I have never used a lever. How exactly does the water hit the puck with a lever?

[Matthew Brinski]

I have my doubts whether a Silvia, no matter how tricked out, can produce temp-stable shots at the cooler end of the espresso range, as Peppina and Caravel can.

Why is that? I used a home E61 HX (Vetrano) to pull a couple of different coffees with a preferred temp of 194F. It took some figuring with a Scace, but once the routine was established it was quite repeatable with some precise extraction routines. Why would a PID'd boiler not be able to produce consistent temps at the low end of the spectrum if a small HX can do it?

Also, the Silvia's greater pump-driven brew pressure won't bring out the more delicate coffee notes as well as a machine with a lower pressure.

Setting aside the argument that a pump CAN produce lower pressures (declining pressures are a different issue regarding the typical pump), what exactly are these delicate notes that can not be experienced on a pump driven machine?

[timo888]

... I have never used a lever. How exactly does the water hit the puck with a lever?

If it's a typical pressurized boiler domestic lever machine, the brew water enters the piston cylinder at boiler pressure, typically 1.1 bar ± .2 bar, though a pstat setting as high as 1.5 bar is not unheard of. The water can remain at that initial inlet pressure for as long as the barista desires (unassisted boiler-pressure-only preinfusion) subject to drop in pressure as it filters through the puck. Then, when the lever is pressed down (or the spring lever is allowed to rise) either a barista-assist to the boiler-pressure preinfusion occurs or the brew pressure ramp-up occurs; this is under barista control -- barista can press with greater or lesser force, or restrain the spring lever, ramping up gradually or rapidly.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

Setting aside the argument that a pump CAN produce lower pressures (declining pressures are a different issue regarding the typical pump), what exactly are these delicate notes that can not be experienced on a pump driven machine?

I am not setting levers against pumps but pointing out that low brew pressure and high brew pressure produce different results in the cup. (If you can play the pump pressure like a violin, great. ) Low brew pressure, in my experience, allows the more fleeting and delicate aromatics to emerge -- floral scents, for example -- not overpowered by the more intense flavors and aromas that get extracted at higher brew pressure.

And by 'low', I mean 3-6 bar.

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

In many ways, repeatability, in the sense of scientific rigor, seems hopeless in espresso brewing (and tasting). If the machine (temperature, pressure) and the bean (age, etc.) did not provide enough difficulties, there is the subjectivity of the taster, whose palate varies within and among days. Yet, if one tries to control both external (machine and bean) and internal (that's you or me) factors to the best of there ability, one may hope to come to some general conclusions of what makes a good espresso.

Hence, this thread, in which I seek to unravel some of the variables regarding how grind fineness influences espresso.

Today I finally got a chance to try a comparison between hard and no-tamp. First, I'll say I did this with the PV Export, starting from cold with a half-full boiler (repeated for both shots a couple of hours apart). The blend was <1 week Cafe DArte Firenze. I used two pulls for both shots.

I tightened the hand grinder just about as fine as it would go, filled the basket, and simply leveled it with the weight of the tamper, or slightly more. Two scoops of whole beans filled double basket to a few mm of the rim, not touching the dispersion screen. I took two pulls on the PV, and was rewarded with a very tasty shot. Very full mouthfeel, sweetish.

The second attempt was a couple of hours later, with the grinder opened up a half-turn (180 degrees). The two scoops overflowed the basket, with extra in the drawer. Lesson #1 - a basket will hold more finer-ground coffee than coarser-ground coffee! I tamped this basket as hard as I possibly could at waist level, at least 30#. The shot just ran a bit too fast, however, and it was not too tasty, but just drinkable. It was also much hotter, almost too hot for my taste. Lesson #2 - very fast shots are actually HOTTER than slower shots - I've noticed this before. I think this is because there is less time for the group and PF to absorb some of the heat from the boiler water.

In sum, tomorrow I'll need to tighten up the coarser grind a bit to get the proper pour at 30#, then compare the flavor to the no-tamp shot.

[prof_stack]

Today I used the gram scale for the first time to get a handle on how hard I've been tamping 15 grams into the Gaggia Factory double-basket. I zero'd the scale with Thor sitting on the basket. When I tamped as usual it measured about 4 #'s. NOWHERE NEAR 30#.

Even so, the pull after preinfusion was firm and the crema was thick. Most importantly, both 3 day old roasts tasted great.

Later I used 9 grams in a single basket tamped about 5 #'s and the pull was very hard compared to 15 grams in the single basket earlier. Would have choked my former Sama Export, for sure.

30 #'s of tamp, are you kidding me? With the Trosser burrs touching and worn together like an old married couple it really makes a fine fluffy grind.