Titan Grinder Project - Page 3

[cannonfodder]

I removed the large hopper from the interlock color on the Kony tonight. The retaining tabs were a pain to get pried up over the retaining lip. I have taken the hoppers off both machines and have a 58mm tamper sitting in the throat of both machines. Removing the hopper makes the machines much more manageable.



The added extension on the Kony holds quite a bit of coffee. I will weight out the amount next time I fill it. The grind has tightened up substantially over the previous day. Same coffee but I had to adjust the grind color from 2, too near the start here sticker, strange.



When dosing, I like to move my portafilter around to evenly dose into the basket. That works well with a bottomless portafilter, but a spouted PF clunks around on the portafilter fork on the grinders. I noticed the mount screws on the forks are slotted so they can be lowered just a little, about 1/8 inch. So I decided to unscrew them and move the fork down as far as the mount will allow. I kept thinking 'boy these are long screws' then I hear the dreaded 'tink!'. Apparently, those are not threaded/taped screws and the backing nuts fell down in the case. I guess I get to pull the covers off the Kony this weekend.

[cannonfodder]

I believe the hopper from my Mazzer Mini will drop onto both machines. I will try to remember to bring it home from work (the Mini and Isomac are my office kit) and verify that they fit. The grinders just look funny sitting there with the tamper on top, and it gets to be a pain constantly filling the grinder throat after every grind session. Remember the Kony likes to have some pressure to keep the beans feeding and grinding uniformly.

I usually keep about a quarter pound in the hoppers on my personal machines. They look like shrunken head dolls sitting there with those little tamper handles sticking up. A little espresso voodoo doll.

[k7qz]

I kept thinking 'boy these are long screws' then I hear the dreaded 'tink!'. Apparently, those are not threaded/taped screws and the backing nuts fell down in the case. I guess I get to pull the covers off the Kony this weekend.

As I read this I said to myself "no, don't do this, I've already made this mistake with mine". 'Tink', oops cannonfodder, too late... Oh well, people will want to see the "insides" anyway... Besides, it will be a good time to do "surgery" on the hopper fill switch...

[gscace]

As I read this I said to myself "no, don't do this, I've already made this mistake with mine". 'Tink', oops cannonfodder, too late... Oh well, people will want to see the "insides" anyway... Besides, it will be a good time to do "surgery" on the hopper fill switch...

The level of modding at this point seems a bit over the top. What are the boundary conditions imposed on the tests? Seems to me that the folks using them have little experience with them and are trying things willy nilly. I can tell you that both the Kony and the Robur like having some beans in the hopper. And the hopper fill switch is a non-issue for each grinder since there is a manual override.

Are we testing grinders, or are we testing modded grinders, or are we just modding grinders?

-Greg

[cannonfodder]

I wanted to pull the covers to see what makes it tick anyway. I am actually enjoying not having the portafilter fork on the machine. I find them more annoying than helpful.

When I dose, I do not simply twist the portafilter from left to right, but move it in a circular motion so the doses throw along the sides of the basket leaving a low spot in the center. Then I just level off the high points. Then one tap down onto the tamping stand to settle the grounds and smash it with the fancy hammer. That is how I work a below the rim dose. Sounds like another video opportunity.

[cannonfodder]

The level of modding at this point seems a bit over the top. What are the boundary conditions imposed on the tests? Seems to me that the folks using them have little experience with them and are trying things willy nilly. I can tell you that both the Kony and the Robur like having some beans in the hopper. And the hopper fill switch is a non-issue for each grinder since there is a manual override.

Are we testing grinders, or are we testing modded grinders, or are we just modding grinders?

-Greg

I do not consider removing the finger guard, running the machine without a hopper or adjusting something as simple as the doser fork to be modifying. Others have modified their grinders and documented the process which is why I have not changed the doser pressure switch and pointed out that there is an override.

Anything that would alter the grind would obviously be off limits, or anything that could be considered a permanent change, like cutting wires and bypassing switches. Just as the other buyers guides refrain from making any permanent or extreme changes. However a little experimentation is always acceptable, i.e., changing steam tips to check performance, adjusting pstats, OPV's, removing finger guards to clean out chutes, removing hoppers so they will fit under a kitchen cabinet etc.

In addition to real lab work, this is part buyer's guide. I doubt the average home user would keep a 5 pound hopper on top of the machine if it was not needed, and if it is would want to know that prior to purchasing one. I was not, so I post it for others knowledge. In regard to experience with the grinders, no we do not have experience with them which is why the bench thread is formatted in more of a blog fashion. Documenting what we find as we go and doing it in a relatively logical manner. Then in the final guide, the facts and experiences are condensed into a summery document with reference back to the bench thread for further elaboration. We are at week 2 of a 12+ week review, there is much more to come. Hopefully there will be a little to everyone's likening.

[danblev]

I love "The Bench", and even more the TGP.

I removed the large hopper from the interlock color on the Kony tonight. The retaining tabs were a pain to get pried up over the retaining lip.

In addition to real lab work, this is part buyer's guide. I doubt the average home user would keep a 5 pound hopper on top of the machine if it was not needed, and if it is would want to know that prior to purchasing one. I was not, so I post it for others knowledge. <snip> Documenting what we find as we go and doing it in a relatively logical manner.

For the buyers, how did you pry up the retaining lips?
--
Danny

[k7qz]

Are we testing grinders, or are we testing modded grinders, or are we just modding grinders?

-Greg

You guys are testing grinders, I just using one... Sure is nice to have that silly flapper vane and switch out of the way though. Makes it way easier to clean the grind chamber exit chute as well. I'd bet most home users will end up doing this "mod", hence it's reasonable to mention. For me and my situation at home, it was well worth the 15 minutes of work, but you're right Greg- the point of such testing is to document objective differences in the cup between these contenders for the title of "Grinder King".

For the buyers, how did you pry up the retaining lips?

Flat blade screwdriver placed under the retaining snap clip, slight rotational twist of the screwdriver blade and the clips break off cleanly at their base. The "stock" hopper will then lift easily out of the collar.

[cannonfodder]

FWIW, I did not break the tabs off but pried them up just enough to get the hopper off. If I had to break them I would not have removed it.

Greg has a valid point for the testing. The machines should be tested in their original condition and I will go back to that. But if it were my grinder in my home, the cutoff plate, finger guard and hopper would go. I would keep with the short Mazzer Mini hopper.

[peacecup]

I'm glad you all have caught on the the conical burr craze - it began around 1900 in Germany or thereabouts, if I'm not mistaken, with machines that looked like this:



or this:



Some of us still prefer the "strong, silent type" - no worries about rpm's here. Incidentally, these burrs will last GENERATIONS of home use - witness the 1940's PEDE I use that still produces fine, even, unclumped grind.

But seriously, when the time comes to do blind taste tests and statistics, be careful of what's called the "illusion of technique". Remember that an individual's taste preferences can be confounded by an awful lot of variables, e.g. what they had for breakfast, their mood, local aromas, etc. Compound this with the variation in extraction due to grind, dose, tamp, and bean (freshness, roast, growing conditions, etc). Its just as easy to fall into the trap of believing that "the stats told us so", as it is in believing the large body of professed opinions available on the internet.

PC

[Psyd]

Sure is nice to have that silly flapper vane and switch out of the way though. Makes it way easier to clean the grind chamber exit chute as well. I'd bet most home users will end up doing this "mod", hence it's reasonable to mention.

Since the grinders are designed for commercial use, most of the parts that have a negative impact on home use will be removed or modded. Since the finger flap and the switch are remarkably easy to remove, the test with them gone will have results more applicable to a home user. I can't tell you how much I wanted to remove my autofill switch on my Major the first day I got it, and how happy I've been since I have. Not to mention how hard I kicked myself for waiting over a week, after seeing just how easily it came out without modifying any of the remaining parts (or the switch) in a manner that it couldn't be returned to factory stock in less than ten minutes. Kinda like removing the plasti-tamp-wart off the side. You know that the home user is going to do that, it doesn't change the way that the home user uses the grinder in any negative way, and actually positively impacts use.
All in all, this type of 'mod' only serves to give a more representative critique of the grinder as it will, no doubt, be used in a home barista's environment.

Gut it, Cannonfodder! (heh,heh...)

[danblev]

FWIW, I did not break the tabs off but pried them up just enough to get the hopper off. If I had to break them I would not have removed it.

It is worthwhile .

For home use the hopper, for example, is just too big and replacing it with a short one is almost a must. So users will be looking for insight on this mod and any other that may be reasonable for a home user; including how it affects the bottom line ... the taste.
--
Danny

[Worldman]

Have you ever wondered what our kitchens look like after a short test run?

<image>

I have a very loving wife, who happens to be out of town this weekend.

Dave,

LOL!!!!! You are really "over the edge". I love it!

Len

[joellawry]

Wow, i am really enjoying watching this, so i thought that after reading your site for a while id make a post to say THANKS! Also, how could i arrange to do some....testing for you

[RapidCoffee]

Here at Team H-B, we pride ourselves on our equipment reviews, and go to great (some might say bizarre) lengths to evaluate new espresso gear. A prime example is the Titan Grinder Project. Not only did we plan on pulling and tasting thousands of espresso shots, but we also considered techniques for quantitatively evaluating grinder performance. Two ideas that became reality were grind size and shape measurements.

Grind particle size is undoubtedly one of the most critical factors in a good grinder. The distribution of particle sizes and (to some extent) shapes may be determined by measuring the scattering of a beam of coherent light as it passes through the sample. This measurement is done in an instrument known as a laser diffraction particle size analyzer.

I recently ran particle size analyses on three of the Titan grinders: the Macap MXK conical burr grinder, the Mazzer Robur conical burr grinder, and the Mazzer Super Jolly flat burr grinder. Here's a teaser:



For details, check out the Particle Size Distribution thread!

[RapidCoffee]

Grind particle size is undoubtedly one of the most critical factors in a good grinder. But what about particle shape? Might it play a role as well?

To answer that question, we turned to a really cool tool: the scanning electron microscope, or SEM. This instrument is capable of producing dramatic images of small objects at high magnifications. Unlike a light microscope, in which a beam of photons creates the image, the SEM uses a beam of electrons to achieve great resolution and 3D-like images. And what could make a better image than coffee grinds?

Join me as I venture into the realm of the really small:

[cannonfodder]

I still have not convinced myself that I prefer the Kony over the Super Jolly, or the Cimbali Jr. I do get a different cup, the brighter/fruitier flavors appear to be accentuated and I am picking up on flavors I did not notice before but it is almost too edgy and bright. I have to clear my mind and do some side by side shots.

I think the Kony may work best with deeper blends where the lower toned flavors are more prominent. Its tendency to bring out the brighter flavors would even out the cup. When I use a bright blend high in fruity Africans and fruited Brazils it is almost too bright and edgy, but in the Super Jolly the flavor tones down and becomes smoother on the palate. The Super Jolly works just the opposite, bright coffees are mellowed. As bad as I want to love the Kony, I am having second thoughts. I do get a pleasant creamy mouth-feel from the Kony.

I really wanted to have an unearthly experience with the Kony, but it has just not happened yet. I wonder if I am having the same experience as John with the Macap. Very curious to see if the Robur is different or if my personal preference is for plainer burrs. I am somewhat confused by what my tongue is telling me. I have sampled a few shots from Jim's Versalab M3 long ago and do not recall this kind of a cup.

I need to do some amateur cupping and a few blind shot tests this weekend to convince myself the differences are not part of my imagination. Given the perceived cup differences, I should be able to pick out the Kony 99% of the time.

[RapidCoffee]

OK, enough of the lab work. This thread is all about the grinders!

Some pix of the Macap MXK:



And the Mazzer Robur:



And I can't resist just one piece of espressoporn:

Naked Robur extraction - yum!

[RapidCoffee]

I still have not convinced myself that I prefer the Kony over the Super Jolly, or the Cimbali Jr. I do get a different cup, the brighter/fruitier flavors appear to be accentuated and I am picking up on flavors I did not notice before but it is almost too edgy and bright. I have to clear my mind and do some side by side shots.

I think the Kony may work best with deeper blends where the lower toned flavors are more prominent. Its tendency to bring out the brighter flavors would even out the cup. When I use a bright blend high in fruity Africans and fruited Brazils it is almost too bright and edgy, but in the Super Jolly the flavor tones down and becomes smoother on the palate. The Super Jolly works just the opposite, bright coffees are mellowed. As bad as I want to love the Kony, I am having second thoughts. I do get a pleasant creamy mouth-feel from the Kony.

I really wanted to have an unearthly experience with the Kony, but it has just not happened yet. I wonder if I am having the same experience as John with the Macap. Very curious to see if the Robur is different or if my personal preference is for plainer burrs. I am somewhat confused by what my tongue is telling me. I have sampled a few shots from Jim's Versalab M3 long ago and do not recall this kind of a cup.

I need to do some amateur cupping and a few blind shot tests this weekend to convince myself the differences are not part of my imagination. Given the perceived cup differences, I should be able to pick out the Kony 99% of the time.

Like Dave, my impressions of the conical burr grinders have been mixed. The conical burr MXK pours are sharper, edgier, with more cleanly defined individual flavors, and more of a bitter finish. The flat burr Super Jolly pours are softer, rounder, more blended, sweeter, and more chocolatey. The Robur lies somewhere in between. I've been sampling each pour as straight espresso, then with sugar, and then as a cappuccino. These tastes come through quite clearly in milk.

Again, just first impressions - but fairly consistent for this one batch of home roasted espresso blend. It will be interesting to see how these impressions hold up with commercial roasts. I just opened the Caffe Fresco bags:

Brazil Daterra, ground on the Robur

The Daterra is a nice mellow Brazil, with no striking flavor characteristics apparent in the Robur grind, perhaps better blended than as a SO. I'll do some taste comparisons with the MXK and SJ grinders later today, then sample the Ambrosia blend.

Speaking of commercial roasts: there was a very welcome surprise waiting for me in the mail today. Rocket Coffee Roasters has generously contributed 5 pounds of their classic espresso blend to the Titan Grinder Project:

5 pounds of beans (and a T-shirt!)

Half of this will go in the freezer for the other Titans. Thanks, Larry!

[HB]

Speaking of commercial roasts: there was a very welcome surprise waiting for me in the mail today. Rocket Coffee Roasters has generously contributed 5 pounds of their classic espresso blend to the Titan Grinder Project...

I love Larry's spin on the TGP logo! I suggest adding the slogan, "For those times when nothing less than five pounds of coffee will do."