Titan Grinder Project - Page 12

[AndyS]

Jim, on your "engineering type" question on motor power...

Nice post, Steve, thanks for the thorough explanation.

[k7qz]

I'm wondering if an over-sized motor will run more smoothly when encountering the variable resistance as the beans feed, a bit like a big 8 cylinder with lots of torque runs smoother than a four banger? Presumably, a grinder with less jerking will grind better than one with more.

Larger motors have rotors which can carry more current (as well as stator coils that can carry more current) so they have a tendency to "ride out" minor variations in the load. The rotor doesn't "slip" behind the stator magnetic fields as far. It can catch up easier.

OK, so it sounds like Jim's initial thought had merit after all, right?

The Mazzer Major is rated @ 650 watts which translates into 0.87hp.

Wow, my Major grinder has more hp than my daughters Hyundai...

[ntwkgestapo]

Andy, I appreciate your comments. I probably SHOULD have drawn pretty pictures, but..... maybe in a later post I'll put some in. What we CALL a 4 pole motor is actually a 2 pole "pair" motor as there's both north and south "poles" in the motor. IF you were to apply DC (direct current) to the motor, two poles would have north magnetic poles while the adjacent poles would be south magnetic poles in a "N-S-N-S" pattern (for the "4 pole" motor). Poles are always pole pairs on standard AC Induction Motors, so you get 2 pole pairs, 4 pole pairs, etc.... The more poles you have the smoother the motor runs (but a "4 pole" motor runs plenty smooth enough for most small, fixed speed, applications). When you get to needing lots of horsepower and wildly varying speeds (i.e. you need to generate 2hp @ 10 rpm but you also need 10hp @ 1600rpm [or more!]) or you need to maintain a fairly constant hp over a wide speed range, THEN you get into 3 and 6 phase (or even more!) AC motors. You might need to "excite" the armature with different voltage/current values so that you have massive horsepower @ near stall and less @ it's standard running speed (whatever that may be!). I've worked with 1/10 hp variable speed motors and with 8000hp variable speed AC motors (and even 30,000hp DC motors! THEY get rather large! ).
One of the main reasons that AC motors have pretty much taken over from DC motors in the large industrial uses is the reduced maint. costs BECAUSE there's no brushes/commutators/etc. The motors run longer between scheduled maintenance windows.

[Matthew]

@Dan Kehn / The testers

I was wondering what the future is of The Titan Grinder + related threads?

Is there more testing to be done? Will there be a summarized article on the frontpage with conclusions?


BTW These are great threads but for me it is like: The more we know the less we know.... If you know what I mean


I hoped that this thread would make my grinder decision easier however I'm even more confused....

[another_jim]

As to the status of the review: I'm in the process of getting grind samples for size distribution analysis of all the grinders featured in the "Beat the Robur" thread. I have no idea if we'll be able to analyze all the samples or not; but we should get those of the grinders actually being reviewed. After that, the review grinders go to other reviewers, and the non-review grinders go back to their owners.

As to my take so far, prior to a full analysis: Size does matter. It matters more in terms of consistency than in terms of quality, but it does matter for quality as well. For consistency, the Robur and 68mm conicals, the Compak, the M7K, and the Doge, were about equal and ruled the roost. The 62mm conicals, the Kony and MXK, were nearly as good. The Max and Jolly were next but a good ways behind, and all the smaller grinders were left in the dust. For quality, the differences are smaller. I found all the conicals and the Max equally good, the Jolly a little behind, and the smaller grinders as good for some coffees and doses, but distinctly worse for others. The other reviewers liked the Jolly as much as the conicals.

Personally, after all this, I'd be loath to go back to the Mini or grinders in that class; but I would have no problem living with the Jolly or any of the other review grinders. If you have the space and funds, and value consistency very highly; the Robur and the 68mm conicals merit serious consideration as "ueber titans." However, they won't be a step up in terms of the best shots being better.

[caeffe]

FWIW, I did not break the tabs off but pried them up just enough to get the hopper off. If I had to break them I would not have removed it.
.............

I have a Major and it has a similar hopper to the what I see the Kony has. I don't want to break the tabs on the Major hopper - how exactly do you pry them out on both sides (there are 2 tabs 180 degrees apart) without breaking the tabs? Also, will the shortened mini hopper fit into this "hopper holder"?

[cannonfodder]

I believe all the Mazzers use the same size hopper throat (or at least the three I have used). The catch with the Kony, there is an interlock on the hopper so if you use a mini hoper, you will need to put a shim in the slot to fool it into working.

It took quite some time to get the tabs worked loose. I used a very small craftsmen screwdriver. I would get one worked just to the top to the tab then while holding pressure on the hopper and base to keep it from slipping back down I would work on the other side. It was a major pain and took an hour to get worked off if I remember correctly.

Or you could just order a short Mini hopper and set it on.

[caeffe]

I believe all the Mazzers use the same size hopper throat (or at least the three I have used). The catch with the Kony, there is an interlock on the hopper so if you use a mini hoper, you will need to put a shim in the slot to fool it into working.

It took quite some time to get the tabs worked loose. I used a very small craftsmen screwdriver. I would get one worked just to the top to the tab then while holding pressure on the hopper and base to keep it from slipping back down I would work on the other side. It was a major pain and took an hour to get worked off if I remember correctly.

Or you could just order a short Mini hopper and set it on.

The Major I have also has the same type of interlock. Essentially the black piece contains that plastic tab which engages the interlock. I guess I could put a piece of hard plastic in there to engage the interlock - which i would have to do anyways if i use the short Mini hopper. I do however want to just use the black plastic piece which has the hopper slide in it. It seems that i can put enough beans in there for 2 doubles and close the slide to keep the beans from doing the popcorn pop.

I may just have to bite the bullet and break the tabs but i was hoping to not have to break them. I measured the od of this plastic hopper holder and its ~60 mm which validates that a 58mm tamper will fit in the throat.

I gather most who have a major are not home users so its probably rare that they have this issue. Or it could be that most majors that home barista's have were from the *$ tagex sale and don't have this interlock and plastic hopper holder.

[caeffe]

just a follow-up on removing the hopper from the black plastic hopper holder / interlock

i ended up using 2 paint can openers - essentially they have a curved screwdriver tip that you can wedge in to the tabs and keep them there so that the tab clears the ridge. the hard part is actually pulling the hopper away - ended up putting some dishwasher soap to act as a lubricant as it seemed to be tight into the hopper holder, had the pull real hard - ended up asking my son tho hold the hopper while i pulled & twisted on the black plastic - pop!

no need to buy the short mini-hopper as it looks like with this thing on you can put 2, maybe 3 doses in there and actually close the slide to prevent the beans from popcorning

[cannonfodder]

On the Kony, I could keep around 3-4 doubles worth of beans in the grinder throat and hopper base. I put a 58mm tamper on top to provide some positive pressure. That kept enough pressure on the beans to keep the grind from drifting. I would grind a shot, add some beans, grind a shot, add some beans, so the hopper base was full to just below the top so the tamper would not slide off.

[bobdc]

I am learning much following, as best I can, this thread. Just wondering when final thoughts and conclusions may be expected.

[HB]

There will be one or two more rounds and then we'll start thinking about a final writeup. I don't expect any revelatory discoveries at this point, mostly validating what's already been discussed and condensing it into a more palatable format. Sorry for the delay, the two reviews (Vibiemme Domobar Super, Quickmill Alexia) and getting the Lever Espresso Machine Smackdown / Holiday Wish List Gifts 2007 going has temporary priority. It will be hard to outdo HWLG 2006...

[k7qz]

The Major has been mentioned a few times here. I ran across a brief comparison of the Major vs. a Macap conical here:

http://www.homeroasters.org/php/f...d=14&thread_id=674

Cheers-

[zin1953]

OK . . . I've plowed through all 12 pages, and -- not being the über-geek -- I am, of course, more confused than ever.

So I upgraded from my old Gaggia MDF to a Mazzer Mini (and regretted not getting a Macap M4), only to discover that -- what? -- I didn't upgrade far enough, and my grinder is $#!+ ?

OK, so it's not $#!+, but there is so much to digest here, and much of it is way too technical (or scientific, or bogged down in -- sorry -- focused the minutest of minutiae) for me, that I admit to being thoroughly lost.

Let me see if I can sum up the basics . . . and please correct me if -- when -- I err . . . .

First of all, if I understand the differences:

Mazzer Robur -- conical burrs, 71mm; 420-500 rpm; 900w; $1999 @ 1st-line;
Mazzer Kony -- conical burrs, 63mm; 420-500 rpm; 350w; $1299 @ 1st-line;
Mazzer Major -- flat(?) burrs, 83mm; 1400-1600 rpm; 650w; $895 @ 1st-line;
Mazzer SuperJolly -- flat burrs, 64mm; 1400-1600 rpm; 350w; $689 @ 1st-line;
* * * * *
Mazzer Royal -- flat(?) burrs, 83mm; 900-1050 rpm; 900w; $1799 @ 1st-line;
Mazzer Stark -- flat(?) burrs, 83mm; 900-1050 rpm; 900w; $1799 @ 1st-line.

(The above info is taken from http://www.mazzer.com/second.asp?menu=2; prices taken from http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/mazzer/index.htm.)

While the Macap 4 seems to be at least the equal if not better than the Mazzer Mini, the Macap MXK(conical burrs, 63mm; 350 rpm; 350w; $799 @ 1st-line) -- despite seeming close "on paper" to the Mazzer Kony -- seems to fall noticeably short. But is it $500 worth of "noticeably short"? And how does it fall in with the closer-in-price Major and SuperJolly? Meanwhile, the Macap M7K (conical burrs, 76mm [?]; 1600 rpm; 250w; $1199 @ 1st-line) is on a par with the Kony, but at much higher rpm and lower wattage?

(Why do I think I need an engineering degree?)

Meanwhile, there is the "unofficial" Compak, which seems close in performance to the Robur -- any ideas on price? -- and the Cimbali Max (and just how different is Chris' Max Hybrid -- http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/maxhybrid) . . .

I have a headache.

[jesawdy]

OK . . . I've plowed through all 12 pages, and -- not being the über-geek -- I am, of course, more confused than ever.

In case you missed it, see the TGP offshoot thread, Titan Grinder Project: Can it Beat the Mazzer Robur? It is a good read and may speak to some of your questions.

Ken Fox has a Compak, 2 MAX grinders, and a MAX/Junior Hybrid now (really ). I would expect the new Hybrid to be identical in performance just different case with some improvements for home use (size/switch).

[Ken Fox]

I would expect the new Hybrid to be identical in performance just different case with some improvements for home use (size/switch).

It is.

ken

[TimEggers]

As to the status of the review: I'm in the process of getting grind samples for size distribution analysis of all the grinders featured in the "Beat the Robur" thread. I have no idea if we'll be able to analyze all the samples or not; but we should get those of the grinders actually being reviewed. After that, the review grinders go to other reviewers, and the non-review grinders go back to their owners.

As to my take so far, prior to a full analysis: Size does matter. It matters more in terms of consistency than in terms of quality, but it does matter for quality as well. For consistency, the Robur and 68mm conicals, the Compak, the M7K, and the Doge, were about equal and ruled the roost. The 62mm conicals, the Kony and MXK, were nearly as good. The Max and Jolly were next but a good ways behind, and all the smaller grinders were left in the dust. For quality, the differences are smaller. I found all the conicals and the Max equally good, the Jolly a little behind, and the smaller grinders as good for some coffees and doses, but distinctly worse for others. The other reviewers liked the Jolly as much as the conicals.

Personally, after all this, I'd be loath to go back to the Mini or grinders in that class; but I would have no problem living with the Jolly or any of the other review grinders. If you have the space and funds, and value consistency very highly; the Robur and the 68mm conicals merit serious consideration as "ueber titans." However, they won't be a step up in terms of the best shots being better.

Wow. This is really something to read. The Mini has been the home standard and now it's becoming the bare minimum and perhaps not even good enough (in relative terms to the larger Mazzers)? Dan didn't you predict this?

[Theodore]

As I am, I could say ignorant, what is the term, "solids extraction" please?
And thank you for all useful info you give.

[Theodore]

This is what Andy uses to weigh out the doses for his espresso shots:

<image>

And I thought the Robur was an extravagance!

ken

And I believed, that I was, with my two Tanitas, the one with .001g precision.

[HB]

what is the term, "solids extraction" please?

It refers to soluble coffee solids that are extracted while making an espresso. Also see Brewing ratios for espresso beverages.