Timing of extraction starts when?

[spender]

Hi - do you time the perfect extraction of 1 1/2 to 2 oz in 20 to 25 seconds from the time you turn the pump on, or from the time the espresso actually starts to flow? Thanks!

[jrtatl]

from the time you turn the pump on.

[another_jim]

From the time the first drops appear

[another_jim]

Seriously, the timing rule isn't all that great. Moreover, it's more like 25 to 30 seconds, not 20 to 25.

Here's the proper rule:

0. Throw your stopwatch away

1. Stop your shot by the color of the flow. You want to stop it when the flow becomes light tan and translucent. If you see the crema at the entry point of the coffee into the cup become white, stop the shot, you've gone a little too far (although the white spot is a good way for beginners to to learn)

2. Look at and taste the shot. If it has too much volume, the crema is light (beige), is light bodied, and tastes slightly acidic (sour), grind finer for your next shot. If the volume is too short, the crema too dark (brown), and the taste is bitter and oily/lingering, grind coarser for your next shot.

Get used to doing this drill in your sleep **before** you start playing with dose amount, shot temperature or pressure. Adjusting your grinder to get the right flow is the basis for getting the correct extraction. This drill remains the same for any shot temperature, pressure or dose.

[Psyd]

0. Throw your stopwatch away

1. Stop your shot by the color of the flow.

This drill remains the same for any shot temperature, pressure or dose.

I use the stopwatch to remind me to check the flow when I'm putting together back to back extractions. I'll be preparing the second PF while the first groupe extracts, and the timer's (actually, the microwave's) beep reminds me that the end is near, pay attention. I usually have the grind adjusted that I get a great pull at about 27 seconds, so I'm mostly just watching the auto shut-off. I'll interrupt if necessary, but mostly I just watch and smile. Also, if I'm dialling in a new grind, the stopwatch will convert pull time deviations to notches on the Mazzers fairly accurately. Not pinpoint, but better than a SWAG.
OTOH, how does your pre-infusion figure in? I've been thinking about putting a switch on the Astoria's rotary pump, and I want to start out right. If you pre-infuse for six seconds (or five, at 3.5 Bar?) does that make your extractions start to blonde at twenty? How does the pre-infusion affenct the resulting time?
F'rinstance, if I were to pull a straight shot that starts to blonde at twenty-six seconds from the time I start the pump, how long does the same shot take to blonde from pump start after the six second pre-infusion?

[another_jim]

F'rinstance, if I were to pull a straight shot that starts to blonde at twenty-six seconds from the time I start the pump, how long does the same shot take to blonde from pump start after the six second pre-infusion?

I don't know. I doubt anyone elses data will be good for your machine, or even your blend on any given day.

This is one area where home-baristas have a huge advantage over the pros -- we taste almost all the shots we pull. This is why I'm always amazed about these threads. Why bother with all the arcane diagnostics if you know what the shot tasted like? If it's black, bitter, and too thick, grind coarser, if it's light, sour and too thin, grind finer.

Maybe there's other, ultra-secret grinder adjustments nobody's told me about

[Psyd]

I don't know. I doubt anyone elses data will be good for your machine,

Yahbut, if your machine on your blend on a given day takes thirty seconds for a good shot and the pre-infusion adds five seconds to your shot to make the thing work, it would follow that the pre-infusion time doesn't really 'count' in the pull.
If, however, the five second pre-infusion takes five seconds off the motorized pump time (i.e., the whole shebang takes thirty seconds, including the pre-infusion) then I'd say that it does. While I'm happy to do my own experimentation, the smartest discoveries are made by not repeating work that has already been completed.
So, anyone out there that's willing to share their discoveries?

[cannonfodder]

I just pull until it looks right provided it is not taking 50 seconds (or 15). For what it is worth, I count from the time I hit the button. That includes a 6 second preinfuse on mains pressure (3bar) before the pump engages. Most of my shots run in 30-35 second range depending on blend. Most however, are in the 30 range and I do not use a stop watch; I use my eyes/nose/tongue to calibrate the proper time/dose and temperature.

Don't over complicate the process, it is just espresso.

[Psyd]

Don't over complicate the process, it is just espresso.

Yep, that was the idea. Simply adopt techniques that have been tested by others instead of going thorough the process myself. Sort of my Motus Operandi on these fora. It beats having to get all the complicated computer driven testing equipment!
If I have a fairly good idea of what the expected outcome of a project is going to be, and what results to expect, I can be fairly sure that I'm doing something right when I get similar results to those of those smarter folk that have gone before me. Saves a lot of shooting in the dark.
Of course, if I get bored, I'll try new things, but like most things in life, you should know the rules before you start breaking them... ; >

[AUSTINrob]

...merged with thread on same subject by moderator...


From many sources I have read the recommended extraction time for a shot is approximately 25-30 seconds from the time you pull the lever to begin the extraction. Well I just read on a different website today that that 25-30 second count should begin once the espresso starts pouring from the spout:

"For 1.5 ounces of espresso, the extraction should take between 23-30 seconds where the time starts when the espresso begins to flow from the spouts. To prepare excellent espresso, the pour should look like warm honey dripping from the spouts."

I believe that I have been doing it the more popular way by starting the timer immediately upon pulling the lever to initiate the shot, but how are you guys doing it??
-Rob

[HB]

Timing traditionally begins when the brew pressure is applied and the extraction lasts 20-30 seconds. Most commercial espresso machines have rotary pumps and they pressurize nearly instantaneously; the espresso beads on the bottom of the basket in barely 3 seconds. Most home espresso machines have vibe pumps and require 5-7 seconds before the first drops appear on the bottom of the basket. That may explain the differences you have read.

That said, once you get beyond the beginner stage, Jim's advice early in this thread is best:

Here's the proper rule: 0. Throw your stopwatch away. 1. Stop your shot by the color of the flow.

[AUSTINrob]

Timing traditionally begins when the brew pressure is applied and the extraction lasts 20-30 seconds. Most commercial espresso machines have rotary pumps and they pressurize nearly instantaneously; the espresso beads on the bottom of the basket in barely 3 seconds. Most home espresso machines have vibe pumps and require 5-7 seconds before the first drops appear on the bottom of the basket. That may explain the differences you have read.

That said, once you get beyond the beginner stage, Jim's advice early in this thread is best:

Understood. Well assuming I like the body, taste and look of my espresso, but I want more volume how do I do that? I imagine maybe a different OPV setting? (i've recently dialed it down from 10.5 to 9.5 bars).

Right now I am getting about 2 oz before my shot starts to blonde, and if I try grinding coarser to get more volume, the espresso gets to "thin". (my grind (MACAP), tamp (Auto 30# tamper), PID temperature are all constant)

[jesawdy]

Understood. Well assuming I like the body, taste and look of my espresso, but I want more volume how do I do that? I imagine maybe a different OPV setting? (i've recently dialed it down from 10.5 to 9.5 bars).

Right now I am getting about 2 oz before my shot starts to blonde, and if I try grinding coarser to get more volume, the espresso gets to "thin". (my grind (MACAP), tamp (Auto 30# tamper), PID temperature are all constant)

If you are happy with your espresso, why change? Back to back doubles ("quad-shot"?) would be my humble solution. Your other options are to try more coffee in combination with different and/or larger baskets.

[Psyd]

Timing traditionally begins when the brew pressure is applied

Does 'brew pressure' mean pre-infusion, too? I never got very clear on that in the earlier discussion.

That said, once you get beyond the beginner stage, Jim's advice early in this thread is best:

I dunno, the stopwatch is a useful tool, when applied correctly. I start the watch at thirty seconds (actually, it's the timer on my microwave) and then go to the machine and start the pull. Once it's where I want to stop it, it is very satisfying to be reaching for the button to stop it, and then hear the timer go off. Of course, I usually check the timer as I turn of the machine, just to see where I am. It is a great indicator of how things are progressing.
I would never stop a pull based on a timer. I look at the shot. I've had some fifty second triple ristretti that have been out of this world. Sweet, great mouthfeel, warm and buttery with nutty.... er... I'll be right back...
'Kay, where was I? Oh yeah! Don't let the clock dictate, but you can use it as a measuring tool.

[cafeIKE]

Use a timer that counts up from 0:00, stopping the shot on color.
As PSYD says, fabulous shots occur in the 40's.

Two advantages of count up :
1 - No annoying beep. It's bloody annoying in a busy shop that uses timers to hear the incessant beep.
2 - Times the intershot interval. Over time, can be used to gauge how long a flush is required on an HX.

[Psyd]

1 - No annoying beep. It's bloody annoying in a busy shop that uses timers to hear the incessant beep.

Shop? How many HB'ers are pulling shots in their shops? If anyone tells em that the beep is annoying them, I simply turn, get all red in the face, threaten them with the naked PF, and scream (at the top of my lungs) "NO ESPRESSO FOR YOU! Come back, one year!" ; >

[HB]

Does 'brew pressure' mean pre-infusion, too? I never got very clear on that in the earlier discussion.

For many espresso machines, preinfusion is fairly high pressure (e.g., 4 to 6 bar), so yes, I would include it in the overall pour time. For a lever using only boiler pressure (1 bar), I wouldn't include it. However, this is only my opinion as I'm not aware of a hard and fast definition.

[cafeIKE]

Does 'brew pressure' mean pre-infusion, too? I never got very clear on that in the earlier discussion.

From Lattice Boltzmann model for coffee percolation:

To prepare a 'good' espresso is not an easy task. Many variables can affect the quality of the coffee, such as water pressure and temperature, the amount of ground coffee, how hard it is pressed and (not less important) the practice of the barman. Evidently some of these parameters cannot be controlled in a scientific way, but, for those that can, a few optimal conditions have been empirically determined:

water temperature: inside the machine it should be about 88°C;
pressure: it should be a function of time with profile as shown in Fig. 1;
quantity of coffee: 7 g;
duration: the whole process should take 30 seconds;
production: at the end, we should have about 25 ml of coffee in the cup.

Bottom Line : If it tastes well, do it.

[micki]

88°C ? That's a bit low ...

Kim

[cafeIKE]

88°C ? That's a bit low ...

"about 88°C" could be a poor translation from "at least 88°C"
IIRC, generally accepted range is 88° to 96°C / 190° to 205°F