Thinking of a lever machine - but I have a few questions - Page 2

[cannonfodder]

I still love the looks of the Elektra, but I got a good deal on my Factory. I have an engineer turning some inserts for my portafilter handles for both my Isomac and Gaggia, and then I am turning some new handles for both. I have the Factory in my office. Nice thing about lever machines, no pump noise.

Ich habe Deutsch durchgefallen.

[Walter]

Hallo Karl,

ich bin auch sicher, dass ich die Micro Casa gern haben werde...

I hope you had a good time, back then in Vienna, by that time I had barely left ground school...

With all those Lever-machine aficionados nearby, there will be some "lever jam-sessions" I take it?

Actually I have removed all the spring-clips of my portafilters too, I also prefer to fill the baskets outside the portafilter, since I am rather careful - and terribly slow - with filling distributing and tamping. The portafilter would simply cool off too much if I did that with the PF separated from the group-head. Channeling and uneven extraction had been a major issue for me until I began paying close attention to distributing and tamping and so it has become a habit for me to have the basket separated from the PF.

It appears as if there would be no shipping from Italy until Sep., 5, and unfortunately none of the dealers in question seems to have the MicroCasa in stock. Regarding the handles, I guess I'll have to wait until Christmas...

----

Ich habe Deutsch durchgefallen.

Never mind, I can still understand what you mean, and besides my English is not nearly as good as I would wish it to be either

Have you perchance posted any pics of your Gaggia/Pavoni?

[KarlSchneider]

Hallo Karl,

I hope you had a good time, back then in Vienna, by that time I had barely left ground school...

since I am rather careful - and terribly slow -

Walter,

Among the good times I had in Vienna was my first exposure to espresso. I still remember getting espressi at the Cafe Wok on the Freyung. They served it in thick-walled brown cups like those now available from Nuova Point.

I think being careful and slow is one of the great parts of having a lever machine. I find it slows me down in a way I much enjoy. I am not trying to imitate the environment of a cafe. Their speed of production is important. "Zu Hause" I can and do take my time.

[Brent]

It appears there is a Lever-machine Cabala in west-central Ohio with cafecrema, cannonfodder and me all living about as far apart as Vienna to Graz.

There are many littlee differences for each of us.

Hi, all. New poster here.

Interesting connection with Ohio. I grew up in Northcentral (Bucyrus); now live near San Francisco. Just got a nice, used LP Europiccola a couple of weeks ago. I've been practicing and love it. Have even accomplished a couple of drinkable shots! New Rocky grinder comes home tomorrow, which should help things along.

I just like the feel of being more involved with the shot vs. a semi-auto machine (which I also have). Probably due to my homeroasting fever. Great boards and info here. Glad to have found it (through a link to Steve Robinson's many great posts).

[cannonfodder]

Howdy, (it's not just a Texas thing). I know exactly where Bucyrus is. I have stayed there a couple of times. I make a yearly pilgrimage to the MidOhio racetrack for the AMA Super Bike races in Mansfield (I have to admit, espresso is a close 2 but motorcycles are my first love, wife is somewhere around 3 ).

I like my HX machine, but the lever, especially a non spring assisted lever, is very challenging. The prosumer machines are more science, the lever machines are more art. That applies to both the technique and design of the machine IMHO.

[KarlSchneider]

Hi, all. New poster here.

Interesting connection with Ohio. I grew up in Northcentral (Bucyrus); now live near San Francisco. Just got a nice, used LP Europiccola a couple of weeks ago. I've been practicing and love it. Have even accomplished a couple of drinkable shots! New Rocky grinder comes home tomorrow, which should help things along.

I just like the feel of being more involved with the shot vs. a semi-auto machine (which I also have). Probably due to my homeroasting fever. Great boards and info here. Glad to have found it (through a link to Steve Robinson's many great posts).

Hey Brent,

Glad you joined the chats. I think your phrase "more involved with the shot" is helpful in thinking about the difference in machine types. The difference in the experience is worthy of thought. Cannonfodder suggests the difference between a prosumer HX and a lever machine is science vs. art. This distinction is clearly also part of such questioning. A third fundamental category, not often presented, is nature. Coffee is first of all a product of nature and then as such is something we work with through the methods of art and or science.

[Teme]

I wanted this one, but it went for a bit more than what I was prepared to pay (eur 400). 481 euros (almost $600) for a 26 year old Olympia Cremina! No rust or leaks according to seller, though. My congrats to the buyer...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAP...em&item=7538934656


Kult: Espressomaschine OLYMPIA CREMINA, Schweiz

Still no lever for me, but perhaps soon...

Br,
Teme

[srobinson]

That one is very close to the Swiss Miss that I am working on. You would still need a gasket set on top of that price and paint and chrome work adds up fast if you wanted to bring it back to perfect. There is one in the US now for $500 but missing several parts...drip tray, portafilter etc for comparisons.

Keep looking.

[Teme]

Exactly. I was itching to post here while I was hoping...

Still surprised on how much it went for, though (and yes, I saw the US one as well and that one did not look as good)...

Br,
Teme

[srobinson]

They tend to go for around that price....$600-1000. You have to look at the age. The one you were looking at is a Cremina 67. There were some updates on the Cremina 96 model and then the new one the Cremina 2002 under the new factory. They are all very well made machines and I will try and show what a full rebuild will involve if you want to bring one back up to fully usable spec. That brown is also hard to live with....looks like it is right out of the 70s. Took mine in today for a gloss black powdercoat.

Their prices seem to remain high based on the very few number that are available and the very high price of the new model ($2000+)

[Teme]

Thank you for your comments and responses Steve;-) It appears that I underestimated the market value for these machines...

I am quite intrigued by the Olympia Cremina and I am following your story on the Cremina restoration with great interest. I do have a couple of queries on the machine, though and it seems that due to the rarity of the machine there isn't too much information out there.

So, to my questions (I do appreciate that these are quite detailed but input from anyone who happens to know the Olympia intimately would be highly appreciated):

1) Are there any specific years of manufacture that are preferable over another? If so, why? I.e. I assume that over the long production lifespan of the Cremina there must have been some changes to the spec over the years (as Steve mentioned)?

2) On a related note, I am even thinking of the possibility of going for a new one (I do not rely on my skills enough to embark on a restoration project like Steve's): are the new ones superior or inferior to the older ones? Having a new machine eliminates problems/needs for restoration and they come with some rather attractive accessories. Furthermore I find the black colour scheme and the boiler pressure gauge appealing. I would need to save up for quite some time to be able to afford one, though. The price of a new one is really quite steep...

3) The two previous points lead me to the third one. Is the Cremina really a superior machine e.g. to the Pavoni or Elekta (outside the manual vs spring consideration of the Elektra)? If so, how? I would assume that it may be of superior quality components as well as in terms of the finish. I also realise that one pays a premium for the exclusivity and hand-crafting. But in terms of shot quality? Or increased capacity for consecutive shots without overheating?

4) The Cremina does have a shell, a slightly larger footprint and a different weight distribution and these probably make it more stable than a Pavoni during a pull as well as eliminate the hot outside surfaces "problem" of the Pavoni and Elektra?

5) Finally, I am used to steaming the milk first with my Andreja and then pulling the shot(s). How is steaming with the Cremina in terms of the fixed wand, the steaming tip and the machine's performance in general? I was not too impressed with the Pavoni Europiccola as regards steaming. I would probably concentrate on straight shots with a lever machine but I'm just wondering how it would cope in producing lattes and cappuccinos...

I would be grateful of any insights and/or experiences...

Kind regards,
Teme

[srobinson]

Teme, here is what insight that I can give you on these machines. I am sure that others will comment:

1) Are there any specific years of manufacture that are preferable over another? If so, why? I.e. I assume that over the long production lifespan of the Cremina there must have been some changes to the spec over the years (as Steve mentioned)?

The machines remind me a bit or Porsches where they have maintained a similar design theme over a very long period of time, and have slowly evolved. The manufacturer actually has a very good site on their machines including their technical specs:

http://www.olympia-express.ch/

if you go to the support section of this site you can see the technical specifications for the 67, 96 and the newer 2002. In looking at the schematics you will see the same basic design resonate through the line. The 67 is the earlier and based on year you will see some changes to the steam wand, switches and bottom plate of the machine. With the 96 you get a pressure valve with some minor enhancements and there were significant changes with the 2002.

2) On a related note, I am even thinking of the possibility of going for a new one (I do not rely on my skills enough to embark on a restoration project like Steve's): are the new ones superior or inferior to the older ones? Having a new machine eliminates problems/needs for restoration and they come with some rather attractive accessories. Furthermore I find the black color scheme and the boiler pressure gauge appealing. I would need to save up for quite some time to be able to afford one, though. The price of a new one is really quite steep...

If I follow my Porsche analogy, newer models have many improvements over the older ones...but many will take a 1973 911s over a 1996 996 any day. On the Cremina, the newer 2002 does have some improvements over the older models and are a bit more complicated and some may say the older ones have more charm...depends on your likes. The key differences that I can see on the newer one are the following:

1) Powder coat vs. Wet-Coat. Visiting all the trades this week, I will use their lingo. The 67 has a painted case whereas the new ones are powder coated. The nice thing is that the paint makes it easy to remove on the older ones should you not dig the retro Brown, Harvest Yellow, or Burnt Orange that I have seen.

2) Boiler construction: Stainless 314 Steel on the new ones vs. Marine brass on the older ones. I know I said that mine was Stainless due to the shiny exterior, but you will see in my next post on the reconstruction that it is truly brass.

3) Heading element: Stainless steel on the newer one, copper on the older ones.

4) Pressure gauge on the newer ones

5) Cooler ready light on the new one

6) Changed boiler cap with built in anti suction device....

7) and finally it looks like on the new one that they have changed the piston design to make it multi-parts. Possibly to make it easier to change the gaskets.

I am sure there are some other minor changes, but there are a huge amount of base similarities along the whole line. I have not been able to find any information on desirability of those produced from 1979-1992 while the original factory was owned by Luigi Bresaola, so I don't know if there is a mystique around these older machines like pre-AMF Harleys or pre-CBS Fender Stratocasters. After I finish my restoration, I will surely start this rumor to raise the value of mine to cover the costs.

Your questions 3-5.

The Olympia machines are very well made. I am sure that this drives a significant portion of the cost. The drip tray will support my weight... all edges and metal work is perfect and their castings are beautiful. All lines are hard lines and there is just quality throughout. This work does not come cheap. They are one of those rare machines whose design point was a significant life of performance. The Elektra is much closer to this than the Pavoni. The Elektra has very good guts, and if well taken care of will last a very long time. The Pavoni, which I love, does have its weaknesses. I have what many feel is one of the better ones, but it has cloudy site glass, rusted tray, third Bakelite handle replaced etc....but I can make a great cup with it.

You will not scald yourself on the cover of the Olympia and I really like the footprint. I will do some side by side shots when I get it finished with the Elektra and Pavonis.

With regards to shot performance, you should look at Dan's posts on this since he is the only guy I know and trust that has used one of the new ones. Time will tell on mine once together. There are a few little design tricks that I am interested to see how they effect the shots that I will do a future post on. Dan will be the man on steaming. I think Dan has done great milk on all three machines.

[Walter]

A sidenote regarding the Elektras: The website Italia-Outlet where the Microcasas were recently offered for €763 (~940$) has them now as a "special offer" for €1100 (~1350$) instead of the regular price of €1400 (~1720$). Did anyone else hear that Elektra plans on doubling their prices or is this just a mistake?

Anyhow, I panicked and ordered me one (for the old price) this afternoon...

[Teme]

Thank you for a very thorough response Steve.

6)Changed boiler cap with built in anti suction device....

I'm not quite sure I understand what the purpose of this is? Eliminating the PF sneeze?

After I finish my restoration, I will surely start this rumor to raise the value of mine to cover the costs.

If you were to sell after finishing the restoration, I bet you'd have people queueing up...

I will do some side by side shots when I get it finished with the Elektra and Pavonis.

That'll be great.

With regards to shot performance, you should look at Dan's posts on this since he is the only guy I know and trust that has used one of the new ones. Time will tell on mine once together. There are a few little design tricks that I am interested to see how they effect the shots that I will do a future post on. Dan will be the man on steaming. I think Dan has done great milk on all three machines.

I'll try and find Dan's posts on the Cremina. I also look forward to learning what the design tricks you are planning will be...

A sidenote regarding the Elektras: The website Italia-Outlet where the Microcasas were recently offered for €763 (~940$) has them now as a "special offer" for €1100 (~1350$) instead of the regular price of €1400 (~1720$). Did anyone else hear that Elektra plans on doubling their prices or is this just a mistake?

Anyhow, I panicked and ordered me one (for the old price) this afternoon...

Hi Walter! There are other shops that sell the Elektra for €763 (e.g. espressocoffeeshop). I bet you won't have any regrets that you took the plunge now - the Elektra is a real beauty!

Br,
Teme

[ladalet]

I have had an olympia Cremina 67 for about 2 months now. I purchased it on ebay for $660 US. I upgraded from a Pasquini Livia 90. It is kind of ironic that the Livia 90 made by Bezzera replaced the Pasquini Livietta made by Olympia also known as the Maximatic.

I wrote a very complete review of it at coffeegeek. It should answer most of your questions.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews...piacremina/ladalet

A complete seal and gasket kit is about $60. Just the seal kit for the piston is about $15. I purchased a double filter basket for $25 since mine did not come with one. I also purchased a RegBarber 49mm tamper for it. If you have any questions please ask.

I could not be happier with this machine.

[srobinson]

Euro must be going up. Gasket set cost me $90 from 1st-line. I had seen your review. Please feel free to post on on my reconstruction thread. Would love to have your commentary as well.

[ladalet]

Thank you for the invitation to your outstanding reconstruction thread. Your thread and posts provide those of us with interest in lever machines a great service and are very well written.

I have also extensively revised my CoffeeGeek review. I am constantly tweaking the review as I learn more about the machine, try to improve the format, and find little errors.

[srobinson]

OK Ladalet, here is what I need. I need about 5 good posts on the coffee aspect of the Cremina until I get mine together. As you can see from my rebuild post everyone is itching to see mine pulling shots. Help me buy some time by posting a thread on your machine, your techinque and some pics of your shots.

If you are willing to sign up to this challenge then I will grant you LMWDP #019.

And no cross posting on CG...you know where the real lever-heads live...welcome to the cause.

[HooHaw]

You are only going to get a couple good shots from both before the grouphead temp gets too high, so I would only think Pro if you are going to do a decent quantity of milk as well.

Actually...

With the Pro you can "surf" boiler temp by cycling the machine on and off based on boiler pressure once the group is at temp.

I've been experimenting with this and just the other day managed to pull 10 or 12 shots from a Pro without it becoming too hot.

malachi, could you elaborate more on your technique to surf the Pavoni Pro? Thanks.

[timo888]

What I have had difficulty in is finding information on the Zacconi machines (pictures, specs and experiences vs the more well know machines). Would anyone have more info on these? Does anyone know if the manufacturer has a website?

http://www.zacconi.net/