Thinking of a lever machine - but I have a few questions

[Teme]

I may be interested in purchasing a lever machine as a second (in addition to my Andreja Premium) home machine at some stage. I'd still be pulling the shots with Andreja on a daily basis and the lever would be for occasional use mainly on weekends or other times when I have more time to savour the experience and the inclination for a more "hands on" approach to the preparation of my shots. I am aware of the fact that the learning curve is likely to be quite steep and I had the first taste of this yesterday with a friends La Pavoni Europiccola pictured here. A few hours were definitely not enough to get the best out of it but I may soon have the opportunity to spend a week with this machine.



I have also read Steve Robinson's Elektra vs La Pavoni and Karl Schneider's Elektra MC a leva threads with great interest.

As regards the choices of lever home machines that are available on the market, I have come up with the following alternatives:

Arte di Poccino
Elektra Microcasa a Leva
Gaggia Achille
La Pavoni Europiccola
La Pavoni Professional
La Cimbali Microcimbali
Olympia Cremina
Zacconi Gaudenzio Baby
Zacconi Gaudenzio Copertina Baby Quadra
Zacconi Gaudenzio Riviera

The Gensaco (or Capucio - not sure which is right) lever machines appear to be interesting in the sense that they seem to have a 56mm filter basket, but as far as I know they are not available in Europe (unless they are just rebrands of another make).

What I have had difficulty in is finding information on the Zacconi machines (pictures, specs and experiences vs the more well know machines). Would anyone have more info on these? Does anyone know if the manufacturer has a website? I have also noted that many of the machines listed above appear to share some of the major components, e.g. the grouphead on the La Pavoni, Poccina and Zocconi machines appears very similar, perhaps even the same? I am yet undecided on whether the fully manual (e.g. the La Pavoni) or a spring loaded (e.g. the Elektra) lever machine would be the one to go for. I am trying to narrow down the choice of machines and any further information on the rarer machines would be much appreciated - specifically, are they superior and therefore worth considering? As it stands, the "safe" choice would probably been between the Elektra and the La Pavoni - but even here I am wondering what the real benefits of the professional over the europiccola are if one is just pulling a couple of shots per session (I think you can even add a boiler pressure gauge to the Europiccola if you want)?

The fact that I am likely to have a full week with the La Pavoni is great as I will have the opportunity to get better acquainted with it and this might also help in my decision making process. Even within the first few hours I spent with it, I already noticed most of the common comments that have been made on the La Pavoni, i.e. the hot surfaces, the lurching when pulling a shot, overheating, basket size and fit etc. Even though the shots I pulled were not yet in the same class as the ones I pull with my Andreja (e.g. the crema was a lot thinner and there was a lot less mouthfeel with the Pavoni shots), it is clear that there is potential for improvement - and the experience of pulling a shot with one of these is a joy. Any tips on how to get the most out of the La Pavoni within the week I may be having it at my disposal would be great! I have already checked out these sites:
http://www.lightlink.com/kazys/pavoni.html
http://www.gurus.net/pavoni/

Br,
Teme

[KarlSchneider]

I may be interested in purchasing a lever machine as a second (in addition to my Andreja Premium) home machine at some stage. I'd still be pulling the shots with Andreja on a daily basis and the lever would be for occasional use mainly on weekends or other times when I have more time to savour the experience and the inclination for a more "hands on" approach to the preparation of my shots.

Teme,

You might be surprised. This could turn out different from what you anticipate. The HX machines are great in many ways. The phrase "semi-commercial" and the associated possibility to make many shots for friends seems central. I associate Brueghel's Wedding Feast with them. But if you want a painting for a lever machine, I would go for Rembrandt's Philosopher in Meditation.

As they say around here the major factor is on the opposite end of the pf.

I look forward to hearing how you work this out for yourself. As I have said, I could not be happier with my Elektra. But that is me.

[HB]

The Gensaco (or Capucio - not sure which is right) lever machines appear to be interesting in the sense that they seem to have a 56mm filter basket, but as far as I know they are not available in Europe (unless they are just rebrands of another make).

See Elektra Micro Casa vs. Gensaco Capucio King (the website is quoting the outer diameter of the basket).

My advice is to narrow the field with some distinguishing criteria beyond performance (which is more dependent on you than anything). One that comes to mind that you didn't mention is the ease of getting parts, although this weighs less heavily for levers than pump machines.

[srobinson]

La Pavoni - but even here I am wondering what the real benefits of the professional over the europiccola are if one is just pulling a couple of shots per session (I think you can even add a boiler pressure gauge to the Europiccola if you want)?

While there have been several changes over the years, the professional and the Europiccola are basically the same except for boiler size. The Pro is marketed as 16 cup and the Europiccola is advertised as 8. You are only going to get a couple good shots from both before the grouphead temp gets too high, so I would only think Pro if you are going to do a decent quantity of milk as well. If you look at older units, there will be some differences between the two since the Europiccola kept the dual switch much longer after the Pro converted to the automatic cutoff.

The Europiccola does have a threaded screw on top of the sight-glass that will allow you to add a gauge if you want one. You can see this screw in the picture of the one on your link.

[srobinson]

I would also reiterate Dan's point. While these have fewer parts, you still want to be able to get replacements when you need them. Handles age, drip trays crack, gaskets need replacing, sight glass covers fog...etc. They can last a lifetime but will take a few pieces along the way.

[srobinson]

I'll leave you with the following advice. Since this will be your first lever, go with either the Elektra or the Pavoni. Both are beautiful machines and will entertain you for hours. What I also like about these is that there are good communities around them and you have easy access to guys that can make them sing. Also should you decide that they do not fit your skills/patience/coffee usage etc, then there is a ready secondary market that will pick them up at a good price and leave you no worse for the experience. Then when you master it, you can start pining for one of the more exotic machines and broaden our horizons with your exploits.

Please let me know when I can grant you a LMWDP number.

[cannonfodder]

Evening Teme. I have a Gaggia Factory, re-branded Pavoni, in the larger 16 cup model. I like it. It adds another dimension to the espresso process, albeit sometimes a frustrating dimension. I have the new style with the 51mm PF.

My two cents, I like the chrome finish over brass, does not show scratches as bad. You learn to deal with the hot surfaces after the first couple cases of hot hands. The light weight base does want to move around as you have found. I cut a piece of router mat to form fit under the base. That helped immensely with the machine wanting to wiggle around during use. I was going to take the bottom off and double stick tape a lead ingot in it to add some heft. You are not going to pull more than three shots in a row with the Pavoni. After that the head overheats. I have never quite gotten micro foam from the steam tip but I get close. The crema is thinner than my Isomac but still acceptable. I think I get a thicker/buttery mouthfeel with the lever, but that may just be me. I missed the cup warmer on the machine. I have a small electric mug warmer that I put my cup on to heat. Then pull a blank into the cup to finish heating it.

I actually have my machine at work in my office. No pumps, no noise. Now having said that, if I did it again, I think I would go with the Elektra. The spring assist would make the shots more consistent but remove some of the old world charm, and I just really like the looks of the Elektra.

[cannonfodder]

Well hello Karl. You are the first person I have seen from Ohio, and just down 68 from me. I work in Springfield, live in Dayton. Greetings.

[Teme]

Hi all! And thank you for your input.

My advice is to narrow the field with some distinguishing criteria beyond performance (which is more dependent on you than anything). One that comes to mind that you didn't mention is the ease of getting parts, although this weighs less heavily for levers than pump machines.

Thank you Dan. From that thread and upon further research I have come to the conclusion that the Zacconi, Poccino and Gensaco/Capucio machines are the same (Zacconi Gaudenzio being the manufacturer and the others being rebrands). That narrows it down some and the fact that these machines are hard to find is also a factor - if finding a vendor that can sell me the machine is difficult I think it is safe to assume that parts availability would not be any better either. Hence, I am dropping these from my list.

I would only think Pro if you are going to do a decent quantity of milk as well.

A fair point and logical consider the differences in the boiler size. My first go at frothing with the Europiccola was pitiful. I will have another opportunity try this next week when I will have it at my disposal for a week- although I will be focusing on pulling shots.

The Europiccola does have a threaded screw on top of the sight-glass that will allow you to add a gauge if you want one. You can see this screw in the picture of the one on your link.

The owner of the machine in the picture actually told me that he has the gauge but it will not fit because a) the threads do not match in size, i.e. he would need an adaptor of some sort and b) the adaptor needs to bring the gauge up slightly - otherwise the boiler cap will be in the way...

I'll leave you with the following advice. Since this will be your first lever, go with either the Elektra or the Pavoni. Both are beautiful machines and will entertain you for hours. What I also like about these is that there are good communities around them and you have easy access to guys that can make them sing. Also should you decide that they do not fit your skills/patience/coffee usage etc, then there is a ready secondary market that will pick them up at a good price and leave you no worse for the experience. Then when you master it, you can start pining for one of the more exotic machines and broaden our horizons with your exploits.

I am leaning this way too, i.e. Elektra vs Pavoni. The Olympia sounds very tempting (e.g. no overheating), or would do so if it wasn't for the price (and potential parts availability difficulties). It also looks great in an understated functional way where the Elektra is more like an artsy sculpture (in addition to its function). The Elektra does have a few very attractive qualities like the consistency of the spring lever, the steaming capability and results (as per Mark Prince's review on CG) and the fact that it is available with the nice case for transport or temporary storage...

Steve, could you specify in more detail as to the communities around the Elektra? There seem to be a few sites dedicated to the La Pav but I have not found any such thing on the Elektra...

Please let me know when I can grant you a LMWDP number.

Will do. The fact that the new machine will take up further counter space was not well received by my better half. The Elektra with its looks (could even be displayed in the living room as per Dan's post in the Elektra vs La Pav thread) and/or the case (for putting it away occasionally) are plusses in favour of the Elektra. It seems I have almost convinced myself to go for the Elektra. Let's see if a week with the La Pav will change this. Also, I am currently in the process of convincing my significant other on the benefits of and need for the purchase - a tough job

Br,
Teme

[Walter]

I've pondering the idea of having a small, cheap machine as a second one for office, vacations, as a backup at home, etc. for a while. Having put off my upgrading desire at home and due to the positive feedback on lever machines here and elsewhere, I am now seriously considering to buy an Elektra or MicroCimbali for that purpose (though I suppose that neither of these would ever make it to the office anyway, and they are not cheap either)...

In his 2002 report on CG, Mark Prince mentions something like the drip tray on his Micro Casa being the only real nuisance. Is this still an issue with the current Elektras or has that been fixed, I wonder?

[malachi]

You are only going to get a couple good shots from both before the grouphead temp gets too high, so I would only think Pro if you are going to do a decent quantity of milk as well.

Actually...

With the Pro you can "surf" boiler temp by cycling the machine on and off based on boiler pressure once the group is at temp.

I've been experimenting with this and just the other day managed to pull 10 or 12 shots from a Pro without it becoming too hot.

[Teme]

I've pondering the idea of having a small machine as a second one for office, vacations, as a backup at home, etc. for a while. I am now seriously considering to buy an Elektra or MicroCimbali

I've read that the MicroCimbali is a flawed design - the overheating problems could apparently be worse than with a Pavoni or an Elektra. And at least from what I have seen, it is more expensive and uglier than the Elektra. I have no first hand experience of either, though. One of (the many) things that I like in the Elektra is the possibility of the custom fit case for transport...

In his 2002 report on CG, Mark Prince mentions something like the drip tray on his Micro Casa being the only real nuisance. Is this still an issue with the current Elektras or has that been fixed, I wonder?

I think the drip tray in all of the lever machines is small and difficult to work with when compared to prosumer pump machines.

Btw - I have been offered a 1995 Elektra Microcasa a Leva for a reasonable price. The machine has been thoroughly cleaned (inside and out), all gaskets have just been changed, a new spring and a new higher quality pressurestat would be fitted as well as two extra double baskets would be included. Apparently the only flaws are the usual signs of wear on the (all chrome) finish and the fact that it does have a stuck manometer. I have not seen the machine in the metal yet but have an opportunity to do so in the near future. I am tempted... ...but are there any other things that I should consider in particular? Any reasons why I should turn this offer down?

Br,
Teme

[Walter]

Hi Teme,

I've read that the MicroCimbali is a flawed design - the overheating problems could apparently be worse than with a Pavoni or an Elektra. And at least from what I have seen, it is more expensive and uglier than the Elektra. I have no first hand experience of either, though. One of (the many) things that I like in the Elektra is the possibility of the custom fit case for transport...

I didn't know about the flawed design of the MicroCimbali, but yes I do find the Elektra a lot prettier too.

And what do you call a reasonable price? Here in Austria I would get a new one for ~800€ (w/o case) and free shipping.

[Teme]

And what do you call a reasonable price? Here in Austria I would get a new one for ~800€ (w/o case) and free shipping.

The cheapest I've seen for a new one is €763 shipped within EU. That would be for the all chrome version w/o the case. I would consider about 50% of that for what is a fully refurbished machine a reasonable price (bear in mind that I have not seen the machine in the metal yet, though)...

Br,
Teme

[HB]

In his 2002 report on CG, Mark Prince mentions something like the drip tray on his Micro Casa being the only real nuisance. Is this still an issue with the current Elektras or has that been fixed, I wonder?

From Mark's detailed review:

The only real disappointment I had with anything on the Elektra was the very shallow and hard to pull out plastic drip tray. It seems to me they could have made this at least double its current depth. The way I pull shots I was emptying this drip tray every second or third shot, and lifting it out was difficult.

I got mine last year and it has a shallow plastic tray as Mark describes. Lifting out the tray itself has never been an issue for me. He may be referring to the drip tray cover; it's the metal circular insert that fits snugly in a ridge in the plastic tray. It indeed is tricky to remove separately. I always lift out the plastic tray and cover as one to dump waste water. Separating the two pieces is obviously easy with both of them out.

[KarlSchneider]

I got mine last year and it has a shallow plastic tray as Mark describes. Lifting out the tray itself has never been an issue for me. He may be referring to the drip tray cover; it's the metal circular insert that fits snugly in a ridge in the plastic tray. It indeed is tricky to remove separately. I always lift out the plastic tray and cover as one to dump waste water. Separating the two pieces is obviously easy with both of them out.

I have had my Micro Casa a Leva only two weeks. I agree with Dan. Lifting out the plastic tray is not an issue. For me neither is lifting out the circular metal grid by itself. I always do his with a fingernail. I leave the plastic tray in place while I clean the bottom of the dispersion screen. Then easily lift out the plastic tray and clean. None of this seems at all an issue.

If you want to pull many consecutive shots the tray is obviously too small. But if you want to pull many shots in a row I suspect you will never be happy with an Elektra or a Pavoni. They are not designed for such use.

[Walter]

Thanks for all your input...

Teme, that ought to be the price of "Italy-Outlet", though I did not know that they currently offer free shipping for most European countries too...

I suppose I'll have to live with the shallow drip-tray, then.

I do not plan on pulling many shots in a row with the MicroCasa, once I am familiar with the machine, such a task is where my Butterfly comes in handy. During the breaking-in-period (I wonder who'll be "breaking-in" whom ) things with the MicroCasa may be different, though. I heard someone suggesting to prolong the time before the machine starts to overheat by switching it off and on (temperature surfing with the power switch?), but I think that was for the Pavoni Professional.

I should get some information about delivery times later on today (round Ferragosto - Aug 15th - the better half of Italy seems to be on vacation).

I am still undecided whether to order the Chrome or the Chrome/Brass version. I am aware that the brass is somewhat "vulnerable", but I find it even more beautiful than the full Chrome version...

[cremacafe]

Go with the Chrome/Brass model, if you like the looks. The finish on mine has held up remarkably well over my three years of ownership. I also recommend the wooden handles from Les at Thor Tamper, they look great on the Elektra.

I never have a problem with the drip tray since I don't really use it. I keep a small 7oz stainless pitcher next to my machine and simply slide it under the PF when I remove my cup. It catches all of the remaining drops, and I just clean it out once or twice a day.

[Walter]

Surely a beauty....

And yes, since my wife also would prefer the Chrome/Brass version, who am I to deny such a wish...

[KarlSchneider]

Guten Tag, Walter!

Ich war ein Student in Wien in 1968-69. Get the model you want. You will be thrilled with either. I have the Chrome and like it. Soon I will also have wood handles. Will post pics.

It appears there is a Lever-machine Cabala in west-central Ohio with cafecrema, cannonfodder and me all living about as far apart as Vienna to Graz. Like cafecrema I also use a device to catch drips from the grouphead. I use a custard cup -- works just fine.

In a different post Malachi said he disliked not having the spring clip on a Pavoni to hold the filter-basket in place. On my Elektra I removed the spring clip so I can change filter-baskets for each shot. This allows me to tamp into the filter-basket which sits flat on the kitchen counter. There are many littlee differences for each of us.

Es ist sicher, sie werden eine(?) Elektra sehr gern haben.