Thin & Blonding - what gives?

[skyryders90]

Lately, my shots have been blonding pretty early and just seem thin ... they lack that gloppy, syrupy yumminess. I have taken a look at the extractions with my bottomless portafilter, and everything there seems to be OK - no channeling, no obvious lopsidedness, etc. So if it's not (at least obviously) in the distribution, what other things might cause this? It's not the beans, either - using Caffe Fresca Red Star, 7 days out of roast - plus this has been happening over several different blends, all fresh, etc.

Can temperature cause this? Maybe grind finer and tamp more lightly? Just doing a little soul searching here. lol

[swines]

Sounds like the grind is not fine enough. I recently changed to a new blend and had to reset my grinder by quite a bit. The first pull with the new beans set a speed record of 10 seconds (talk about a blond gusher!). The previous bean blend was pulling 25-30 seconds at the same grind setting.

[skyryders90]

Sounds like the grind is not fine enough. I recently changed to a new blend and had to reset my grinder by quite a bit. The first pull with the new beans set a speed record of 10 seconds (talk about a blond gusher!). The previous bean blend was pulling 25-30 seconds at the same grind setting.

The confusing thing - that I neglected to mention in my post - is that the shot's aren't quick. They go 1.5 oz or so in ~27 seconds. I say 1.5 oz "or so" because of crema dissipation, etc., I can never figure out what the real volume is. If anything, I was thinking they were a little SLOW, not fast.

[HB]

So if it's not (at least obviously) in the distribution, what other things might cause this?

When I see a sudden transition for an otherwise even extraction, I tend to blame the distribution and transversal channeling. Channeling among layers isn't revealed by the bottomless portafilter, so I'm speculating a bit, but the visual effect is easy to produce by a hard tamp mid-dose followed by a very light tamp after dosing. Any chance you could post a video? It would make for an interesting diagnosis exercise (see my Bench post for a similar discussion).

PS: It's just a hunch... try grinding coarser (about 3/4 click clockwise on a Mazzer Mini) and overdosing by an additional two grams. That should give you approximately the same pour time and might reveal what's going on.

[skyryders90]

PS: It's just a hunch... try grinding coarser (about 3/4 click clockwise on a Mazzer Mini) and overdosing by an additional two grams. That should give you approximately the same pour time and might reveal what's going on.

I'll work on the video, but that will have to wait until Friday (my class week ends on Thursday night).

I've been grinding coarser here lately, overdosing to about the most I could fit in a standard ridged LM double basket, and tamping hard. Any coarser and the shots get quick. I had been grinding a lot finer, but I was getting really quick dissipating crema, even with very fresh beans, so I decided to try coarser and more updosing.

I kinda feel like I've been wandering a bit ... a little lost I guess.

[swines]

The confusing thing - that I neglected to mention in my post - is that the shot's aren't quick. They go 1.5 oz or so in ~27 seconds. I say 1.5 oz "or so" because of crema dissipation, etc., I can never figure out what the real volume is. If anything, I was thinking they were a little SLOW, not fast

Now that we have all the information - what Dan said.

I like to dissect the puck when I have problems like that. I'll let it dry out some and carefully cut it into slices to see if I can find channeling, voids, etc. You can at least verify evenness of distribution and tamping.

Are you dosing by volume or weight?

[skyryders90]

I like to dissect the puck when I have problems like that. I'll let it dry out some and carefully cut it into slices to see if I can find channeling, voids, etc. You can at least verify eveness of distribution and tamping.

Oh no ... puckology. lol. I'll crack one open and see what I can see. They are coming out really nice and solid - once they dry out I can pick them up, etc., without breaking.

Are you dosing by volume or weight?

Volume. Dosing and distribution go like this:

Grind with mini-e until basket is roughly half full. Even out grinds by knocking against grinder forks (if I dont do this the mini-e throws grinds into the part of the basket away from the grinder and guarantees an uneven extraction). Grind until I have a nice pile. Stockfleths distribution, brush any remaining grinds into knockbox. Tamp once, turn basket over knockbox to get rid of loose grinds, tamp hard, twist to polish.

[malachi]

Quick questions...

1) are you tapping the portafilter straight down on the grinder fork or side to side?
2) how does the espresso taste?
3) how old are the burrs in your grinder?
4) what kind of machine are you working with?

Thanks.

-c

[HB]

Grind with mini-e until basket is roughly half full. Even out grinds by knocking against grinder forks...

Another thought...

As I noted on the Bench, the Mini E builds a very tight pyramid and you will need to work the distribution carefully. Although the Mini E has a portafilter rest, I instead rotate the handle while filling and then distribute loosely before any mid-dose tapping. This assures the center won't have a mile-high pile compared to the edges before settling the grounds. With this extra step, the extractions were as even as when I carefully thwacked the regular Mini's doser handle.

Side-by-side comparison of baskets filled by...

Modified doserless Super Jolly (left), Mazzer Mini E - Type A (middle), and doser Mazzer Robur (right)

[skyryders90]

1) are you tapping the portafilter straight down on the grinder fork or side to side?
2) how does the espresso taste?
3) how old are the burrs in your grinder?
4) what kind of machine are you working with?

Thanks Chris -

(1) Generally straight down, but i have also tried side to side or even more manual methods of leveling the distribution. As Dan pointed out in the post after yours, the mini-e makes a tight little pyramid, and sometimes it seems to take more than one downward thwack to get things arranged.

(2) It's ok ... some sourness. Drinkable in milk drinks ... not so much straight.

(3) Grinder is new - less than 2 months.

(4) Bricoletta - using LM portafilter, LM ridged double basket

[skyryders90]

As I noted on the Bench, the Mini E builds a very tight pyramid and you will need to work the distribution carefully. Although the Mini E has a portafilter rest, I instead rotate the handle while filling and then distribute loosely before any mid-dose tapping. This assures the center won't have a mile-high pile compared to the edges before settling the grounds. With this extra step, the extractions were as even as when I carefully thwacked the regular Mini's doser handle.

I generally do this, too, though I'll note that it doesn't seem to make a difference one way or another with my current problem. I have also tried taking the basket out of the portafilter and grinding it it while rotating it.

[default]

if you could, go to other people's machine and bring your coffee and you do the shot on that machine. -- to find out whether something is wrong with your machine. and vice-versa.

[malachi]

1) are you tapping the portafilter straight down on the grinder fork or side to side?
2) how does the espresso taste?
3) how old are the burrs in your grinder?
4) what kind of machine are you working with?

Thanks Chris -

(1) Generally straight down, but i have also tried side to side or even more manual methods of leveling the distribution. As Dan pointed out in the post after yours, the mini-e makes a tight little pyramid, and sometimes it seems to take more than one downward thwack to get things arranged.

(2) It's ok ... some sourness. Drinkable in milk drinks ... not so much straight.

(3) Grinder is new - less than 2 months.

(4) Bricoletta - using LM portafilter, LM ridged double basket

So the shots taste sour? Not bitter - but sour?
Does it seem a bit "flat"?
Is the crema a little light in colour? Is it consistent in colour?
Is the mouthfeel thin?

[skyryders90]

So the shots taste sour? Not bitter - but sour?

For the most part. I can scorch one if I want and get it some bitterness, but generally the taste defect is sourness (to my palate at least)

Does it seem a bit "flat"?

Yes, it does - nothing really going on there.

Is the crema a little light in colour? Is it consistent in colour?

Yes, it is light in color - kind of a darkish sandy blonde color, if that makes sense. It will sometimes have dark streaks through it. Certainly none of the chocolate browns or reds that I have heard crema described as having. It is mostly consistent, though it gets lighter as the shot goes on, to the point that the lighter colors can mark the rest of the crema.

is the mouthfeel thin?

Absolutely. Though it does have the nice espresso aftertaste effect ... and most of the "bad" flavours don't linger as well as a couple of general coffee flavours do. But regardless of that, the mouthfeel is thin/watery.

[malachi]

You need to check your brew temp.
It sounds as if it is too low.



I'd also (just because) check your brew pressure as well while you're at it.

Oh... what is your water solution?

[skyryders90]

You need to check your brew temp.
It sounds as if it is too low.



I'd also (just because) check your brew pressure as well while you're at it.

Oh... what is your water solution?

I have been having a little bit of difficulty in managing the brew temp on my Bricoletta. When the sputtering stops - according to an in basket thermocouple - the water temp is ~202, and from there it decreases quickly, on the order of 2.5 degrees/second. I have increased my boiler pressure, but am still experimenting to see the results. This was 3-4 days ago, and so far the espresso quality is pretty much identical.

I didn't realize that brew temp could impact texture and mouthfeel, as well as blonding.

Brew pressure is ~9.3 bar.

Water is tap water in a 5 gallon bottle running on a FloJet, running through an Everpure 2CB5-S cartridge.

[malachi]

That is VERY cold.
On the Bricc that I tested, sputtering stopped at around 206F.
What is boiler pressure at?

[skyryders90]

That is VERY cold.
On the Bricc that I tested, sputtering stopped at around 206F.
What is boiler pressure at?

According the (uncalibrated) gauge, it is 1.1 bar, though through cycles it gets as low as .95 and as high as 1.2.

[chelya]

I didn't realize that brew temp could impact texture and mouthfeel, as well as blonding.

Me too. Chris, could you elaborate? I did notice it after reading this topic - it blonds a lot sooner with lower temps.

[malachi]

Yup.
Brew temp will affect mouthfeel, crema persistence, extraction volume, etc.