Thin & Blonding - what gives? - Page 2

[Grant]

Skyrders90, did you ever find a resolution to this issue on your Bric? I have a Bricoletta as well, and am struggling big time trying to get a drinkable espresso. I was initially suspecting my Rocky DL grinder as I am having some timing issues between clicks, but going back to my PID Silvia, I get an incredible shot using the same roast, beans, grind, etc.

It seems I may be having the identical issue to you. My shots appear to be blonding early, the crema is light, and the taste is a sour harshness - a bit acrid. I am using the factory PF and basket. I am using softened city water into a 20micron carbon filter and pressure regulator before feeding the Bric.

Grant

[malachi]

Brew temp.
Work on your flush. The flushing methodology/timing that works for a Silvia will not work for a Bricc.

On a side note - suggest you upgrade to a LM portafilter and basket

[skyryders90]

Skyrders90, did you ever find a resolution to this issue on your Bric? I have a Bricoletta as well, and am struggling big time trying to get a drinkable espresso. I was initially suspecting my Rocky DL grinder as I am having some timing issues between clicks, but going back to my PID Silvia, I get an incredible shot using the same roast, beans, grind, etc.

It seems I may be having the identical issue to you. My shots appear to be blonding early, the crema is light, and the taste is a sour harshness - a bit acrid. I am using the factory PF and basket. I am using softened city water into a 20micron carbon filter and pressure regulator before feeding the Bric.

The "resolution" is that malachi is 100% correct - it's all about temperature. I DID make some tweaks to the machine, but I think I could have probably gotten by without them. My problem had been too LOW brew temp, so I made 2 changes to the machine as a crutch to help me err on the side of too HOT: (1) I increased boiler pressure to fluctuate between ~1.05 and 1.25 bar, and (2) I raised the water level in the boiler up to the point just before the steam starts to get "wet."

The simple fact that you can go back to a PID Silvia and get a good shot tells me that your issue is brew temp management. Most of the other differences between the 2 machines come out in the Bric's favor, but the PID makes Silvia the clear winner in brew temp management - hence the differences between the shots.

I'm still playing around with finding a flush routine that works for me. I don't really time the flush or measure the volume - I flush until the sputtering stops and count down from there (got it from malachi's review of the Bric - no need to reinvent the wheel here). What I'm playing with is how long to wait after I stop the flush until I pull the shot. I'm not all that consistent yet, but it's getting better.

[skyryders90]

I'm still playing around with finding a flush routine that works for me. I don't really time the flush or measure the volume - I flush until the sputtering stops and count down from there (got it from malachi's review of the Bric - no need to reinvent the wheel here). What I'm playing with is how long to wait after I stop the flush until I pull the shot. I'm not all that consistent yet, but it's getting better.

I would also caution against anyone taking a lead from what I'm doing - unlike many others who started with a Silvia or other like machine, the Bricc is my first real espresso machine. So while those folks already have basic skills like dosing and distribution - leaving the quirks of a new machine as the main variables - I'm learning those AND dealing with the quirks of a new machine. Makes it hard to isolate things down to one variable, so no telling how my flushing methods may work for you.

[malachi]

Honestly, with the Bricc I find the easiest solution (and most predictable) seems to be as follows.

1 - pull a garbage shot.
2 - wipe, dry, grind, dose, distribute, tamp.
3 - flush (time down from end of sputtering) to desired temp.
4 - insert portafilter, pull shot immediately.
5 - taste.
6 - if correct, enjoy. if displaying the characteristics of a cold shot, repeat with decreased flush time from end of sputter. if displaying the characteristics of a hot shot, repeat with increased flush time from end of sputter.

Once you dial in the flush time from end of sputter for a particular coffee, it becomes VERY repeatable this way.
If you do some measurements, you can start correlating time to temp. With this, it becomes even easier (I know the Hairbender pulls best at 197F so with the way I have the Bricc set up it's a long 6 count from end of sputter; etc.).


On a side note - In the next few weeks I will be collaborating with a vendor involved in this site on a system/modification to allow for FAR easier and more accurate brew temp management on the Bricc (and other machines similar to it).
This project is code-named Monster Bricc and is part of the Monster Cafe plan.
It will actually include some other mods and customizations as well.
When ready, I will post a big history, timeline, photos and information about the project and the results.
With luck - this will become a possible offering for others as part of a modification and customization service.

[skyryders90]

On a side note - In the next few weeks I will be collaborating with a vendor involved in this site on a system/modification to allow for FAR easier and more accurate brew temp management on the Bricc (and other machines similar to it).
This project is code-named Monster Bricc and is part of the Monster Cafe plan.
It will actually include some other mods and customizations as well.
When ready, I will post a big history, timeline, photos and information about the project and the results.
With luck - this will become a possible offering for others as part of a modification and customization service.

WOW! Now THIS has me excited. If you need any other Bricc owners for, you know, testing or whatever ...

[skyryders90]

Honestly, with the Bricc I find the easiest solution (and most predictable) seems to be as follows.

1 - pull a garbage shot.
2 - wipe, dry, grind, dose, distribute, tamp.
3 - flush (time down from end of sputtering) to desired temp.
4 - insert portafilter, pull shot immediately.
5 - taste.
6 - if correct, enjoy. if displaying the characteristics of a cold shot, repeat with decreased flush time from end of sputter. if displaying the characteristics of a hot shot, repeat with increased flush time from end of sputter.

Once you dial in the flush time from end of sputter for a particular coffee, it becomes VERY repeatable this way.
If you do some measurements, you can start correlating time to temp. With this, it becomes even easier (I know the Hairbender pulls best at 197F so with the way I have the Bricc set up it's a long 6 count from end of sputter; etc.).

Did you find there to be any difference in results with this routine when the machine has been sitting idle for a while versus pulling successive shots?

[malachi]

Yup.
Thus step #1.


Probably don't need any other Bricc testing, sorry.
The whole thing is actually targeted at commercial E61 machine use, but should be suitable (if overkill) for the high end home E61 machines like the Bricc.

[skyryders90]

Yup.
Thus step #1.

Aahh, I see. This routine is expressly designed for a successive-shot pulling scenario.

Probably don't need any other Bricc testing, sorry.
The whole thing is actually targeted at commercial E61 machine use, but should be suitable (if overkill) for the high end home E61 machines like the Bricc.

I figured you didn't ... never hurts to try and get some monsterizing for my machine, though. =)

[malachi]

Yup.
Thus step #1.

Aahh, I see. This routine is expressly designed for a successive-shot pulling scenario.

Actually, no - it's designed to start at idle.
You then pull a garbage shot to mimic the starting point of successive-shot pulling.
If you've already pulled shots (and the machine has not sat idle) you can skip step #1.

In other words, it's designed to give you the benefits of successive shot pulling.
Whenever I look at data logged output from espresso machines, the first shot seems to always be the one with the largest variance (brew temp, shot temp, extraction time, volume, pressure... you name it). The idea is to get past that and into the "sweet spot."

Of course, the sacrifice is that you throw away at least one shot per session (more when you're adjusting the grind).
This works for me, but I don't pay for coffee. So I realize that it probably won't work for other people.

[skyryders90]

Actually, no - it's designed to start at idle.
You then pull a garbage shot to mimic the starting point of successive-shot pulling.
If you've already pulled shots (and the machine has not sat idle) you can skip step #1.

In other words, it's designed to give you the benefits of successive shot pulling.
Whenever I look at data logged output from espresso machines, the first shot seems to always be the one with the largest variance (brew temp, shot temp, extraction time, volume, pressure... you name it). The idea is to get past that and into the "sweet spot."

Of course, the sacrifice is that you throw away at least one shot per session (more when you're adjusting the grind).
This works for me, but I don't pay for coffee. So I realize that it probably won't work for other people.

My apologies - I knew what you meant but I did a lousy job of wording it. I should have said it is expressly designed to mimic successive shot pulling, and that your flush-n-go technique & timing are built for a successive shot-pulling scenario (which step #1 creates).

For that first garbage shot, do you still flush and countdown as you would for the second shot, but just toss it?

[malachi]

exactly.
i caution, however, against using that first shot as an indication of anything (including potential grind adjustments).

for me the garbage shot also works as a seasoning shot because I scour the inside of the portafilter multiple times a day, soak it once a day with detergent and backflush (clean water) multiple times a day and with detergent probably every other day at the least.

[Grant]

Brew temp.
Work on your flush. The flushing methodology/timing that works for a Silvia will not work for a Bricc.

On a side note - suggest you upgrade to a LM portafilter and basket

I would love to upgrade to the LM Portafilter/Basket as was suggested in the Bricoletta article, but by the time you pay brokerage, shipping, and actual item cost from the US to Canada, it would probably cost $300. I have looked for somewhere in Canada to buy these to no avail? Anyone in the US want to send me one as a "gift" (which is according to Canada customs is an item under $60 Canadian) - I could arrange to recompense. Doing it commercially is just not financially feasible by the time the vendor, the courier, and the good old gov't takes their cuts.

On the flush side, I have studied the "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs" article a dozen times and tried everything from reducing boiler pressure (to reduce flush times) to minimal flushes to keeping it extra hot, to pulling 4, 6, or 8oz flushes and pulling immediately, to pulling as soon as the water dance stops etc. All seem to be failing a this point....I am in a rut it seems, or the machine is just simply wrong for my altitude, environment etc. I currently have the boiler sitting around the 1.0-1.1 bar area.

One question I had, is how to clean the grouphead screen area. On the Silvia, I would often take off the screen, and clean underneath well. This was sometimes a contributor to the acrid taste, but I am scared to pry at the Bric. Is there a guide to cleaning HX's anywhere?

Grant

[HB]

I would love to upgrade to the LM Portafilter/Basket as was suggested in the Bricoletta article, but by the time you pay brokerage, shipping, and actual item cost from the US to Canada, it would probably cost $300.

Why not go bottomless with your stock portafilter? A good machinist shouldn't be too cost prohibitive.

Is there a guide to cleaning HX's anywhere?

See Espresso Cleaning 101 for step-by-step instructions. Unlike your Silvia, there no reason to remove the E61's dispersion screen since the detergent backflush leaves nothing behind (seriously, I've looked).

[malachi]

I would love to upgrade to the LM Portafilter/Basket as was suggested in the Bricoletta article, but by the time you pay brokerage, shipping, and actual item cost from the US to Canada, it would probably cost $300. I have looked for somewhere in Canada to buy these to no avail? Anyone in the US want to send me one as a "gift" (which is according to Canada customs is an item under $60 Canadian) - I could arrange to recompense. Doing it commercially is just not financially feasible by the time the vendor, the courier, and the good old gov't takes their cuts.

This is going to sound weird - but if there is any cafe in your area that uses a La Marzocco, you can just go by and ask them if they would sell (or give) you an old one when they retire it.