The Ponte Vecchio Export

[peacecup]

I'm the proud owner of a new Ponte Vecchio Export, their most basic model (also sold as Gensaco). I'll plan to post a review of it here or on coffeegeek once I feel qualified. I wanted to start this topic to give some first impressions, and to get advice from some of you more experienced with lever machines in general, so I can improve my skills more rapidly.

The Export is a beautiful, albeit quirky, piece of art. I ordered the enameled white version because it was the last one left on sale, but I actually prefer paint to chrome (sorry La Pavoni and Elektra fans!). The Export has a nice, heavy cast base, and a powder coated white metal box around the boiler. Kind of a tall, narrow, Cremina-type (I saw a photo of a white Cremina from Germany that I thought looked very nice). I'll post some photos of it soon (I could not find one photo of a white or black Export anywhere on the web). The chrome group is highly-polished and lovely. Among the quirks are imperfections in the finish of the metal base, a drip tray that is almost totally useless, and a steam wand that cannot be rotated. These are the types of things that I imagine a Cremina would have few of.

The Export is a spring-lever machine, and it has the same 45-mm group as the more expensive Lusso, which I've seen compared to the old Olympia Club. To date I've pulled about a dozen shots on it (the first time I've ever used a lever). I'm glad to say that the majority were quite drinkable, in comparison to about three years of straight shots pulled on Saeco pump machines. I'm not much of a taste expert, but I did seem to discern the "depth" of flavor that I've seen described for levers. A very promising start.

Now for the questions:

Pulling the lever down appears to fill the group, and allowing it to rise pushes the water through the puck. I can get about 1.5 oz with three pulls, which seems to be as much as the small basket will support. How long should this take? Should I pull and lift the lever at the same rate throughout the shot? Should I stop at any time, top or bottom? How about half-pulls? I've noticed on some shots that the puck seems to have been cracked - should I pull the lever down with the portafilter partly engaged, as I've read some Cremina users do.

Thanks to all in advance for any impressions,

[bill]

"I have, at least, a well-polished, silver-plated coffee-pot in front of me"
Peacecup, are you a fellow Sherlockian? Or, did you just read The Hound of the Baskervilles.

[Dr Jim]

I've pulled a fair number of shots with our PV Lusso, which has essentially the same group, but a larger boiler than the 'Export' version, and it's a pretty forgiving device compared to a Pavoni or our hot-rod Isomac.

The single biggest improvement I found was to become pretty critical about making sure that you've completely purged the boiler of the 'false pressure' bubble which forms as the machine comes up to temperature. For the life of me, I cannot clearly recall if the 'Export' has a boiler pressure gauge like the 'Lusso' does, but I fear it doesn't, so you'll be on your own to determine when the purge is complete.

On trick is to pay careful attention to the thermostat light and do a 10-15 second purge via the steam wand as soon as it goes out for the first time - the steam sound will have a characteristically 'coarse' or 'spluttery' note, and will trail off as the false pressure is bled.

Now do two more 5 second bleeds about 2 to 3 minutes apart, noting the steam character - the last bleed should have a pretty consistent hiss and not trail off towards the end.

Once you've bled the boiler, lock in the portafilter with a blank basket and do a 10-15 second flush to bring the grouphead, portafilter, and basket up to temperature and to ensure you've got fresh, hot water throughout the system with any nasty steam bubbles bled from the group.

Now, moving quickly, you should prep your shot, tamp, load the portafilter, and just before locking it in place give a 2-3 second spritz with the lever which should be just enough to turn on the heating element. I like to work with the element on for the first couple of shots, and off for any subsequent shots.

Once the PF is locked in place bring the lever down smoothly, and hold it down until the first dark-brown drips appear in the glass or for at least for 10 seconds. Once your pre-infusion is complete, gently guide the lever until the spring takes over - don't just release the lever, this is a good way to 'shock' the puck and potentially separate it from the walls or cause channeling or cracking.

Once the lever is moving smoothly, keep your damn meathooks off of it - resist the temptation to jockey or nurse the lever unless your shot is obviously stalled and you need to throw everything away and start over again.

If you want more than 1.5oz of espresso, you can take another pull - just remember to hold the lever down for 2-3 seconds to ensure that the grouphead is at full pressure before releasing it. You really shouldn't take more than a half pull on the second shot, I like to remove the glass as soon as the stream turns blonde, and let the rest of the pull just go into the catch tray.

Because the PV baskets are relatively tall and narrow, you may want to experiment with using less tamping pressure than the normal 30Lbs that the wide, shallow 58mm baskets seem to want - I've found that 20-25Lbs with a slightly finer than normal grind works best in my machine.

Cheers

Jim

[bill]

Peacecup,
I've taken some photos of my Riviera which I think has the same or similar group to your machine. If I can figure out how to post them I'll do that.
Some items that may be of help to you:
1)The 'double' basket is really not; it holds almost exactly the same volume coffee as the 'single' basket on my 58mm Futurmat. The largest shot I pull on the Riviera is about 1.5 oz. and that's for a latte and usually has a lot of blonding. If I just use the lever once it pulls a little less then 1 oz. and makes a pretty darn good espresso.
2)The steam wand on my machine is fixed, too. In fact it is on my Elektra and on the Pavoni Ambassador I used to have. I never thought it was an issue and I think you'll get used to it without any problem.
3)My drip pan is also very small but it holds enough to make two drinks. I then put a small sponge in to soak up the liquid and wring it out in the sink. That seems to work for me.
4)Tampers are hard to find in the 45mm size. I replaced the wood tamper that came with it by buying one from Williams-Sonoma. It cost about $10, but was approximately 47mm. I filed it down and them polished it with an emory cloth. Works great and the price was right! Brian at espressoparts.com will custom make one, too, for $5 more then his stock tampers.
5)Just read the post from Dr. Jim and he's got a good point about the small basket not needing a lot of tamping pressure. It took me a long time to figure that out!
You're going to really enjoy your new machine. I'm looking forward to seeing some photos!

[peacecup]

Gentlemen,

I want to thank you both for your prompt responses! I expect day four with the PV will be a good one thanks to your help.

Vanelis had special 45 mm tampers made for them, so I'm set there - but I suspect I've been tamping a bit too hard.

RE: releasing false pressure: I'd given some thought to just leaving the steam valve open while it heats, like an old open boiler. Its a pain to keep steaming up the place three times before pulling a shot.

I only seem to get about 1/2 oz per pull, but I expect this is because I was not filling the group properly - I'm anxious to try Dr. Jim's advice on this and other tips tomorrow AM. Any idea on how to remove the dispersion screen for cleaning? it looks to me like its pressed on. Also, do you have a schematic - I plan to send a request to Vanelis and the Company if I can't find one elsewhere. I must say I REALLY liked the hand-drawn diagram of the machine in the short instruction booklet!

Its interesting, but these things have been around some 30 years, and Dr. Jim's comments are really the only I've come across re: how to use them. I also want to note that these comments helped to decide me in favor of the PV, and that I have not been disappointed.

Bill, I am certainly a true fan of the Canon, but have never gone any further than reading and re-reading and re-reading it.

[HB]

I've taken some photos of my Riviera which I think has the same or similar group to your machine. If I can figure out how to post them I'll do that.

See Posting images on HB.

[Dr Jim]

{snip!}

Vanelis had special 45 mm tampers made for them, so I'm set there - but I suspect I've been tamping a bit too hard.

The Vaneli's tamper is very decent, although after using a 58mm RB - it's a bit like tamping with a shrunken head .... Also, I think that Vaneli's is one of the class vendors, my experiences with them have been first rate.

RE: releasing false pressure: I'd given some thought to just leaving the steam valve open while it heats, like an old open boiler. Its a pain to keep steaming up the place three times before pulling a shot.

Sadly, this will just slow down the boiler getting up to temperature, you'll still have to bleed off the false pressure. Chris's Coffee sells a steam breaker valve, but it would have to be teed off the steam wand fitting on your machine.

{snip!}

Any idea on how to remove the dispersion screen for cleaning? it looks to me like its pressed on. Also, do you have a schematic - I plan to send a request to Vanelis and the Company if I can't find one elsewhere.

In a word, DON'T - unlike E61 machines, the lever machines do not suck great gulps of coffee gorp back up through the group head and the screen won't foul unless you grossly overpack the portafilter - just a weekly with a stiff brush should keep it like new for years. OTOH, that dainty little 45mm gasket between the portafilter and grouphead does need constant attention to make sure that coffee bits do not get ground into it. I like to keep a bar towel handy, and use it to give the group gasket a 360 degree swipe after every shot as well as brushing off the dispersion screen.

Schematic? you want a Schematic - fine ... "From the wall, power goes to da Switch. Da Switch has a Neon light. From the Switch, power goes to da Pressurestat which turns the boiler on and off. From the Pressurestat, power goes to the boiler heating element. From the boiler, power goes back to the Wall and returns to God..."

Cheers

Jim

[bill]

Peacecup,
Thanks to Dan I've got some photos for you as promised:


Does this group look similar to yours?


Note rather small drip tray.


This is how I empty drip tray since it's not removable.


'Double' basket is deeper then the Elektras and hold almost as much coffee. Actually more because the Elektra's dispersion screen sticks further down inside the basket then the Riviera's.


Tamper bought from Williams-Sonoma for about $10 and modified from 47mm to 45mm. It has a flat bottom and weighs a little over 1/2 pound.

[Dr Jim]

1)The 'double' basket is really not; it holds almost exactly the same volume coffee as the 'single' basket on my 58mm Futurmat. The largest shot I pull on the Riviera is about 1.5 oz. and that's for a latte and usually has a lot of blonding. If I just use the lever once it pulls a little less then 1 oz. and makes a pretty darn good espresso.

Bill -

Have you got one of these monsters?



It's a 58mm 'Futurema' that I'm in the midst of restoring, and would like to swap notes, pictures, info etc....

Cheers

Jim

[bill]

Peacecup,
Again Jim is right on! I've never removed the dispersion screen on my lever groups except to replace gaskets, etc. I do use one of the small angle brushes to clean the gasket every day and always wipe down the screen and gasket daily, too.

[peacecup]

Thanks to Dr. Jim and Bill for the support. Results after about a week with the PV are still mixed, but seem to be settling down into a nice 1 oz. espresso, using about 10g of freshly-roasted local beans and two pulls of the lever. One troubling feature is that the puck almost always seems to have a crack in it, as opposed to the solid pucks I would get with my Estro. I assume the crack in the puck comes from suction on filling the group, and it means I'm getting an uneven extraction. I haven't been using more coffee and three pulls for a 1.5 oz. extraction for this reason.


Here are a couple of photos of the white Ponte Vecchio Export, just to try out the photo link.

The PV and hand grinder:

The group:



I'll post some photos of extractions soon. I'd love to hear more tips. I have a local roaster who will do custom blends - anyone have a good blend for levers?

[srobinson]

Try the Ambrosia blend from Caffe Fresco. Tony has been tweaking it a bit and I was really pleased with the batch that was using between Xmas and New Years. It has been really singing on the Olympias. If you can get the sweet note out of it then you know you are doing it right.

[peacecup]

Having just gotten into my second month with the Ponte Vecchio, I thought it was time for a brief update. This may be particularly relevant because I have seen a number of these espresso makers (rebranded as Gensaco Capucio) being sold on Ebay lately ($450-$550). I might also add that Vanelis, where I purchased mine, still had one on their website last time I checked for $375. Considering that the new Gaggia Achille is selling for $1200, the Ponte Vecchios are among the lower-priced lever machines.

I must say that I am very satisfied with the PV. I qualify this by saying also that I have never used any other lever machine, and that I very much like the small shot volume produced by the 45-mm group (0.5-0.75 oz. solos, 1-1.5 oz. doppios). If one is interested in traditional American doubles (2-3 oz.), I'm not sure that the PV would be the best choice.

The PV's are made by a very small company, and I have noticed several imperfections in the aesthetics of the finish. That said, I am pleased with the overall aesthetics, and I believe the quality of the components is first-rate. The company link is here:

http://www.pontevecchiosrl.it/index.htm

I have been having an excellent journey learning on the PV. I purchased it with the understanding that I would be limited to relatively small-volume espressi, but I expected to be pulling mostly doppios. My most pleasant surprise has been how well the single basket performs. After an initial experimental period where I tried both the single and double baskets, most of my espressi have been solos using one pull (or a Fellini pull) with the single basket. I have become aware of just how sensitive the lever machine is to bean freshness, particularly for a solo espresso. Essentially, there is nowhere to hide in 0.75 oz. of fluid. With fresh beans my solos are among the tastiest espressi I've had - the flavor profiles produced with the lever machine have really exceeded my expectations. With beans that are past their peak, however, I simply can't pull a decent solo, no matter how I try to compensate by varying grind/dose/tamp. The same beans in a double basket will still produce excellent doppio. All this leads me to believe that low-dose, small-volume espressi are a great way to capture the true essence of the coffee bean. They have the additional advantage of allowing me to sample a wider variety of beans over the course of the day.

I have just recently begun to explore SO coffees, and this has been wonderful. This week I had freshly-roasted Indian Balanoor Estate (Raven's Brew Cherry Karma), Brazilian Bieja Flor, and Guatemalan. Not only were each of these lovely on their own, but they were excellent blended in various proportions. Solo espressi with the PV allows me to taste the flavor profiles of each, giving me my first glimpse into to magical world of coffee variety. Yesterday afternoon I had a straight Brazilian, followed by a Brazil/Guatemalan blend. I was pleased to discern the addition of the "bite" in the later. This morning it was a pair of solos of a 50% Brazil, and 25/25 Indian/Guatemalan blend. They had all of the smoothness of the Brazil, the bite of Guatemalan, and the incredible finish of the Cherry Karma. So the journey goes on....

PeaceCup

[gammeltoft]

Dear all,

Good to see a riviera/ponte vecchio thread going. I had one of these (chrome riviera eagle, aka zacconi, aka gensaco) a few years ago before passing it on to a friend.

Back then advice was really scarce, but then the lever forum didn't exist at that time. Despite the excellent advice above, on one point I have to disagree. The dispersion screen on lever machines DO have to be disassembled and cleaned - more often than you think. True, it does not have a solenoid and thus do no take as much crud up through that way. Pressure is, however, released (slowly) upwards through the piston, not just through the grounds. This is noticeable when the screen starts getting clogged, as it will (in my experience on the microcimbali, elektra, pavoni and riviera) result in a higher likelihood of pf sneeze / longer depressurisation time. It should also be evident that the piston pressure will have a sucking effect, particularly when doing secondary pulls where the grounds are already wet.

Unlike other spring groups with top bolts, such as the elektra and microcimbali, the riviera is a b***ch to disassemble (or rather reassemble), as you have cock the spring while holding down the group and trying to insert the pin securing it. As a consequence, I would be quite pedantic in my cleaning schedule regarding the group and dispersion screen area so as not to let crud enter up into the group itself. Fortunately, the dispersion screen in the riviera pops right off, which allows very easy access for a quick cleaning of the bottom of the piston (clean the bottom then push the lever half way down and clean the internal sides of the group) and soaking the dispersion screen in some cafiza or similar.

I may be wrong, but this is my experience and two cents.


Best

Thomas

[peacecup]

Here's another brief update on the PV Export. In a word, this machine rocks. I can now attribute most of my prior shortcomings to the barista and not the machine (as I expect is often the case). Having read a bit from owners of other home levers, and browsed around quite a bit on what's out there, I have to say the Export is very satisfying. I've overcome the small group limitation by experimenting with grind/dose/tamp, and I can now pull a nice 2-oz. doppio. I've never used a Cremina, Pavoni, or Elektra, but I bet in the hands of a good barista (not me!) the Export could hold its own. Recently been traveling the world via SO espresso - the lever really accentuates the flavor profiles. I've found it difficult to go back to blends (hat's off to KS).

Some good points:

Spring lever operates very smoothly - consistent, no looseness or wobble
Rock-solid stability for such a small machine - rubber suction cups for feet. I can pull shots with both hands, the machine does not move.
Sheet metal housing keeps extremities cool.
Nice little cup warmer on top
Steams like a rocket (seldom used)
Fairly portable - uses little space
Good lookin' (beauty's in the eye of the beholder)
Not a cult classic

Some negatives:

As noted before, there are slight imperfections in the finish
Small group requires 3-4 pulls for a 2-oz. doppio
Non-removable drip tray needs to be sponged
Might want to move up to the Lusso model if you want to make espresso for lots of people
Can't find any threads from PV users on HB or CG!

Some photos (not much of a photographer):

Note the tall, narrow, demitasse - never seen anything like:



48-h Ethiopian Yrgecheffe in a 3-oz. Bodum polkadot:




Espresso-by-numbers:



Cheers,

PC

[Hogfire]

Hey there peacecup,


Your results looked so delicious, it set off a Pavlovian response in me (salivating and my Factory is heating up as I type this!). Your dedication to exploring all that is possible with the PV is commendable and you've added a wealth of knowledge to the lever community concerning this overlooked machine. In fact, I propose that you have set off a wave of interest in the PV exports, and I curse you for it! Well, not really, but you did get me interested in purchasing one to use at work, but by the time I had enough money to buy, Vanelli's was sold out! I imagine their stock of PVs hardly moved until you started posting your experiences. I'd also venture to say that it seems all the domestic lever machines available are capable of top notch results, and probably just about equal if the operator takes the time to really know the machine.

I remain interested in purchasing a spring operated machine in the future. Looks like you got quite a deal, considering what you paid in comparison to an Elektra. One question: does your machine use a pressurestat, and if so, is it user adjustable? I'll keep my eyes open for deals on the PV like Vanelli's was offering, but with the recent wave of interest, I doubt I'll have any luck.

Cheers for sharing all your findings, and keep those mice out of the cup!

Hogfire

[slooowr6]

I bought the last PV from Vanelli's.
The PV does have a p-stat but I'm not sure if it's adjustable I've not open it to check. Check the thread by cannonfonder, http://www.home-barista.com/forums/post7204.html#7204, before playing with the p-stat.

Here is the problem, these types of machines require at least .5 bar pressure to operate, that is around 228F water temp, much higher than the accepted norm of 205 for brew water. Even after I added the digital controller my water temp at the grouphead is still to hot. It is better and I do notice a difference, but was it worth all of the work, still undecided.

I let my machine preheat for about a half hour at 190F, then I ramped the temp up to 230F (brew temp), took a type K thermocouple and held it suspended in the opening of my single spout PF. I raised the lever and watched the temp. After about 8oz of water it stabilized at 213F. I have to assume that if I was pulling a normal shot the temp at the shower screen would be lower than that due to group head temperature, but after slowly streaming out 8oz of water it was hot.

Now for the sake of fun, I let it cool, repeated the process but ran the temp up to steam pressure, 242F (about 1 bar) and took the water temp using the same method. That is about where the machine ran at using the OEM pressurestat. Guess what the water temp was, 213F again.

So in the end, the water I got from the machine at the lower setting, and the water that would have been dispensed at the normal pressure level appear to be the same. I have to emphasize, appear. While I do have access to a couple thermocouples, I have no desire to spend hundreds of dollars on testing equipment. I have become somewhat less enchanted with all of the tech tricks and gizmos over the past month and gone back to concentrating on what is most important. My barista skills and what ends up in the cup.

So take it with a grain of salt. Can you improve on the stability of these styles of machines, yes, but is it worth all of the work, undecided. You also loose some of the old world classic design by putting a digital controller or big old variac on the counter beside the machine.

Alex

[peacecup]

Hogfire,

The PV does have an adjustable pressurestat- I had the pants of her last weekend, and was impressed by how simple things looked. Gene at Vanelis adjusts the p-stats down to around 0.8 bars when he tests them I think, so I haven't messed with it. My Export travels between work and home on the weekends, so I'll try to get a photo this weekend. This review of the PV Lusso has some nice photos:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...-review-t1484.html

I agonized over the $375 for some time before I took the plunge - I thought about waiting for a used Cremina or Pavoni to come up, but the prices just kept going up. I got the second-to-last Export from Vanelis, so they've been out of stock for some time.

I've never used another lever machine, so I have no idea how spring levers compare, but at first there were times when I wanted more control on the upstroke (= the downstroke on Pavoni). Because the PV is relatively stable, I've discovered that I can indeed apply extra pressure if the pour is a tad slow. Success mostly comes from the correct grind/dose/tamp for a given bean.

Re: PID, I have no doubt that accurate temperature control would allow one to to get more reproducible results, once the barista has become VERY competent with grind/dose/tamp. Even then, each batch of beans, roasts, and age will add variation. If the p-stat is working properly, the temperature should be stable once the machine heats up, so although you're stuck at this pre-selected temp., you should be able to get consistent results for that temp. At this stage in my learning curve, I'd have to agree with Cannonfodder that the most important factors are:

My barista skills and what ends up in the cup.

The Yemen Sanani doppio I just poured was so *$%&ing good, that I hate to think what they'll be like when I've had the ten years of experience that Steve R and others have!

PC

[peacecup]

Nearly two years ago I started this thread, after buying a closeout Ponte Vecchio Export. Shortly thereafter Vanelis stopped selling the Export due to poor sales. Well, thanks to a handful of spring lever enthusiasts, ITS BACK IN THE USA:

http://www.1st-line.com/machines/...vecchio_export.htm

At at no less a retailer than 1st Line. I'm glad for the folks at Ponte Vecchio Srl, who clearly care about making a good product. I can say that after two years I have not had a single problem, and the coffee just keeps getting better.

PC

[mogogear]

Hey, Jack did you see that they carry the two head Lusso! ? LMWDP stuff is working......