another_jim wrote:(cross-posted on alt.coffee)
I had a chance to look at these before and was stunned and mute. With
a bit more thought, I have some thoughts, although they may be a bit
incoherent:
-- I'm guessing you've gotten close to converting your machine to a
single boiler. With the Cimbali one piece HX and group, and the group
acting as a heat sink; I'm guessing the HX stabilizes around 210F -
220F, and that with the cold inflow, you're basically getting shot
temperatures inside the HX all the time.
-- One question will be how well the steam works at this boiler
pressure. Home lever machines, like the Elektra, Pavoni, and
Micro-Cimbali operate at around this pressure. These are all very good
steamers, better than low end home HX machines. So, with the proper
steam tip, you may get good performance, albeit more slow.
-- The other question is what happens if you start nudging the boiler
pressure up and the flush amount along with it (adjusted to keep the
average temperatures of all the shots in each series roughly equal). Does the
stability get more ragged slowly? Or will it stay at this stability
level for a while, then go back to normal HX behavior.
-- In Italy, most bars keep steam pressures low, usually around 0.8
bar, and have HXs suited to that temperature. Dual boiler machines are
not even a blip there. Perhaps you are getting closer to the way these
machines were designed to perform.
-- Finally, there's always been a "Nah, no way" reaction to running
the steam boiler of an HX with a TC placed inside the HX. Your data
shows it may not be so farfetched after all.
lennoncs wrote:Congratulations Ken!
You have found that "DPlot Religion"
nice looking graphs, I am going to ruminate on them a bit before I comment but it looks promising.
Cheers,
Sean
edna713 wrote:After slogging through the lengthy prose from Fox, who was testing shot temps between dinner courses, and is NOW calling his Cimbali jr. a lowly HX machine, I have a question:
WHY IS IT SO HARD TO GET CONSISTENT TEMPS FROM HX DESIGN MACHINES?? why all the fiddling and folderol?
AndyS wrote:It's hard to get consistent temps from ANY espresso machine. Even a DAVE-PIDed Silvia!
If you get yourself a Scace device and do some testing, you will find this out for yourself.
Ken Fox wrote:You are among the most rigorous and conscientious "espresso-scientists" out there, and I really respect your judgement and your observations.
Ken Fox wrote:Could you tell us what if anything you have found on the idea of there being a "sweet spot," a certain band of temps that a machine might be able to pull flat curve shots at, and that the ability to do this declines as one gets to the fringes of this "band?" It seems only logical to me that you can only tune such a system (as an espresso machine) so well, and in the design the engineers would have to decide where they wanted the machine to be the most stable.
AndyS wrote:Sorry to tell you that I have no data on this. Certainly your point makes sense: the band of temps within which machines will exhibit good thermal performance cannot be unlimited....
lennoncs wrote:Congratulations Ken!
You have found that "DPlot Religion"
nice looking graphs, I am going to ruminate on them a bit before I comment but it looks promising.
Cheers,
Sean
MJ's Cafe wrote:Can you point me to a few articles/forum chats on this site to try and improve my shots through stabilising my HX machine?
MJ's Cafe wrote:I've been wondering about that michael. After checking a few articles on how to rig up a portafilter with a temperature probe and the importance of having the head of the probe level with the top of the puck: see Schomer article: (how do i work this bloody url insertion thing?) http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/schomertable13.html
"After the porta-filter has heated up thouroughly in the group head grind a shot and pack it over and around the bead probe. It is crucial that the bead just shows on top of the packed coffee. If the bead is sticking up too high it may contact the metal dispersion screen and create an erroneous reading. If it is buried inside the packed coffee it will take 10 to 15 seconds to obtain a true reading of what the machine is doing as brewing water permeates the packed coffee."
Schomer advocates packing the shot 'over and around the bead probe'. How do I do that and 1) avoid damaging my tamper on the head of the bead and 2) ensure the shot is as close in consistency as a normal shot would be without packing around the bead? I was going to have a go and use my ol' friend trial and error but thought to ask you guys first and avoid the potential of a few hours of frustration, hair pulling and tantrum throwing.
cheers, mark.