Switched to non-pressurised portafilter... result is non existent crema

[rickoshea]

well .... having started a few weeks ago on my journey to the perfect espresso and struggled my way for a week with an underpowered , underengineered Krups machine I read a few reviews and bought a Solis SL70 which has been performing beautifully ( with the standard pressurised filters ! ) . However , I dont want to cheat and basically want better shots so I ordered the aftermarket filters for the machine . My problem , and its an annoying one , is that when using these non pressurised filters my crema is ..... non existent . I'm using the same grind and same fresh beans ( I do use a bur grinder but cant afford the REAL ones out there ! ) . So ... can anyone help ?!! . I'm desperate to get a decent shot with a nice longgggg crema !! . Thanks all .

[another_jim]

Does the grinder go fine enough so you can get 1.25 to 1.5 ounces in 30 seconds from the double filter? Was the coffee roasted within the last 10 days?

You'll need to answer yes to both questions before real crema is a real possibility.

[DC]

Hi,

another_jim probably solved your problem already.

Just to add my two pennies worth: There are more variables to control with non-pressurised baskets, so a small jump in ability is needed too. I had the same problem when I first switched. I had to grind considerably finer, use a bit more coffee, and tamp harder (the manufacturer's recommendations for my pressurised ones were to use no more than 14g grounds and to tamp lightly with the ill-fitting tamper that came with them). It takes a little while to adjust, but the new baskets will pay off.

Good luck,

DC

[jovial]

I had to grind considerably finer, use a bit more coffee, and tamp harder (the manufacturer's recommendations for my pressurised ones were to use no more than 14g grounds and to tamp lightly with the ill-fitting tamper that came with them). It takes a little while to adjust, but the new baskets will pay off.

There's a clear difference between extracting the best espressos and keeping within the manufacturers recommendations and guidelines,
and extracting the finest espressos possible using the available hardware.

I, personally, have sent my filter baskets for depressurization... took me a while to decide on it.. considering that it's an irreversible step.
But it doesn't damage my machine and wouldn't lower its life-time by any means....

grinding much finer than recommended, tamping harder, etc puts the machine under much more pressure.... aren't you worried about destructing the machine??
do you think the machine you're using is even designed to work under such conditions?

(just to give you an idea... I looked at my machines instructions leaflet, and saw a note saying "the machine extracts one ounce of espresso in 20 seconds using the ESE pods"...
based on that, i've concluded that it should be able to do so with ground coffee as well... so i'm not that worried about putting the machine and its pump under pressure).
I could be well wrong in here.

[DC]

Those were the recommendations for my machine when it had pressurised baskets: these baskets help build up the pressure. Therefore, by altering the baskets, you need to make some significant adjustments to your technique as you'll see if you use your old grind/tamp/dose settings when your newly de-pressurised baskets arrive.

This is speaking from my own experience with my own machine, but it has only done good for my coffee - it hasn't done any harm at all.

I'll re-emphasise though I was only mentioning this in passing as 'tweaks' I had to perform to get better results with my new baskets. The principal reasons for not getting good crema are those another_jim has already explained.

Hope this helps
DC

P.S. Besides, if it did ruin my machine, at least it'd give me a good excuse to get a better one

[rickoshea]

thanks for the replies . I've just pulled 5 shots and my average double shot time for 1-1.5 ozs each is around 23 secs ... a bit fast from what i gather . I can try a finer grind and more tamp pressure and see what works . At present I only get a outside crema ring which does nothing for my aesthetic appreciation of my ( lack of ) skills or my taste buds !!

[mattwells]

If you have the ability to choke the machine with a fine enough grind (what kind of grinder do you have?) then it is probably your beans. You have to have fresh beans to get good crema.

You want to be consistent in your tamp (30#'s is Schomer's preferred pressure - I think consistency is more important after a point [maybe above 20#'s or so, never really tested it]).

If you are consistent in tamp and are getting in the 25-30 sec range for about 1.5 oz. you are in the ristretto area and (I think) you should have crema unless the beans are old.


If your beans are old, then there is nothing you can do tamp/grinder wise to make crema.

Sad to say that I do not know of any places in the Atlanta area that roast good beans, you are going to have to look to other places (try the sponsors of the forum, they all roast great beans) to get them. Sad but true.

Matt

[iiifrank]

Just to echo other comments, fresh beans along with a decent grinder are absolutely critical. I've owned 2 machines that shipped with pressurized portafilters (Starbucks Barista and Solis SL-70) and have made good espresso on both using the non-pressurized portafilters. I just tamped and dosed consistently while changing grinder settings to create the 2oz in 25-30 second pull. Even when using a Starbucks Barista burr grinder (before upgrading to a Rocky) I could get an ok shot with real crema.

Good luck!

[rickoshea]

confession time .... I have a Cuisinart DBM 8 Burr Grinder , which i set at the finest setting . I know its not a great one and if its essential .. I'll get another ( any advice on the best reasonably priced one I can buy ? ) . It would seem that I'll have to get beans elsewhere than here , I'll look at the sponsors sites . My shots ( doubles . are taking about 28 secs for 2 ozs ) have nice crema with the pressurised filters , virtually none with the non pressurised . Its my mission to get good , consistent shots !! .

[another_jim]

Batdorf and Bronson has their East Coast roasting in Atlanta, check them for good coffee; otherwise, any of the great roasters talked about here -- Intelligentsia, Counter Culture, Paradise, Rocket, Metropolis, Fresco, etc etc

I don't know this grinder. You'll need to check if it's a real burr grinder or a "knob" grinder, pictured here:
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-stuff.html

My opinion is that the lowest cost acceptable espresso grinder is the Nemox/Quaha Lux, sold at around $160 (same burrs as the Innova illustrated on the linked page); sometimes the Pavoni PGC is also sold for this amount and has a slightly more attractive package. These are loud and messy, but grind superbly. If you want something more civilized, the Rocky or Cunill, which have commercial burrs and motors, are the minimal choices.

[HB]

I hadn't heard of that particular model either. A fast search led to lots of consumer reviews on amazon.com. Their reviews suffer from shills (marketing agents posing as consumers), but the complaints are often valid. This one caught my attention:

Better than a hammer?
Regardless of the setting you use, you will get half coffee powder and half coarse grounds. In addition, the feature that is intended to allow you to control the amount of grounds you make with a switch on the top ... does not work. Be prepared to grind more than you need, and then measure the grounds (somehow avoiding the powder) yourself.

Also see Best Inexpensive Grinders? (from the Espresso Gear FAQs and Favorites).

[rickoshea]

i knew the cuisinart wasn't up to much ! . Looks like its time to do some research and invest in a new grinder . Please don't feel responsible for my wife not speaking to me for several weeks as i spend MORE money on my coffee mission ! . I'll post again soon once I've done some looking , thanks for all the replies

[rickoshea]

just looking at a few grinders here , anyone have any experience of the Kitchenaid KPCG100ER ? , it seems to be highly thought of over at coffeegeek.com . I really can't spend more than about $200 .....

[jesawdy]

The Cunill Tranquillo just hits your price point. Probably the best you can do at $200 unless you start looking for something used.

I haven't heard anything glowing here on HB regarding KitchenAid and espresso grinds.

[DigMe]

The Cunill Tranquillo just hits your price point. Probably the best you can do at $200 unless you start looking for something used.

Yes...at this pricepoint go with the Tranquilo.

bc

[rickoshea]

ok ... Tranquilo it is , seems like a good deal for $199 . One more bit of advice needed ... doser or doserless ? , thing is the doser model comes in a stainless steel finish , this looks better ! , but is it worth the extra $35 ?

[mattwells]

doser or doserless ?

Ah...to dose or not to dose, that is the question (and quite a can of worms). Check here for a poll regarding that question, and also check the spotlight on grinders for more general info.

[jesawdy]

See this thread for some discussion of doser versus doserless.

[rickoshea]

damn ... different opinions ! . I pull only 2 at a time ... one for my wife , one for me so doserless would seem to be adequate enough , but I cant find how good a machine the Cunill is in doser and doserless versions ... more research needed ?!

[another_jim]

damn ... different opinions ! . I pull only 2 at a time ... one for my wife , one for me so doserless would seem to be adequate enough , but I cant find how good a machine the Cunill is in doser and doserless versions ... more research needed ?!

Don't sweat it too much. In my opinion, **all** grinders suck when it comes to shot by shot usability, either at home or in a business; dosers and doserless just suck in different ways. The main thing is to get a grinder that grinds really well, and secondarily, is relatively durable and quiet.

The Cunill grinds very well, is durable and relatively quiet. It also comes in both versions, read all the opinions, then follow your instinct, pick whichever looks cooler, or flip a coin -- there isn't all that much riding on this decision.