"Sweet" espresso? - Page 2

[Beezer]

You should try Coffee Klatch's Belle Espresso blend if you haven't already. It's my current favorite - very dark chocolatey and fairly forgiving of temperature variations. It seems to like to be brewed around 200 degrees and with a bigger dose. I dose about 18 grams. Makes a great straight shot or cappuccino.

[Thatchmo]

Hey Beezer,

Thanks for the suggestion, I am brewing up a couple of shots of the Belle Espresso this morning!

Thanks,

Kirk

[orwa]

Hi Kirk,

It wasn't until I did something really stupid that I understood that espresso is a sweet drink in general. What I did was that once, for a not so clear of a reason I poured my espresso over a bowl of soup that I was having for dinner. That soup was a salty one, and the whole combination, well... Sucked... That is, it was an AWFUL combination!

Why was it so awful? Because it so clearly combined a salty liquid with a "sweet" one! Later on, I started observing that some coffees make a considerably sweeter espresso than others, where the coffee I know which possesses this quality has a distinguished chocolate flavour as well. I remember that when I first bought my machine I was still naive regarding its thermal management, which is a bit difficult, so I used to frequently brew shots at high temperatures, leading into burnt espressos, which for some reason caused the chocolate flavour in this coffee to jump out, and my parents kept wondering why would their latte sometimes taste like bitter chocolate (which was by the way an unpleasant property).

I photographed a typical shot of this sort, along with the bag of this coffee blend I am referring to, in case that matters to you .

EDIT: Although the espresso below is considerably sweet, it does have a dull/astringent flavour, maybe similar to hazelnut, which is why I don't usually prefer it for straight shots, however it's very, very good with properly steamed milk, and makes such a perfect latte base.

[RapidCoffee]

It wasn't until I did something really stupid that I understood that espresso is a sweet drink in general. What I did was that once, for a not so clear of a reason I poured my espresso over a bowl of soup that I was having for dinner. That soup was a salty one, and the whole combination, well... Sucked... That is, it was an AWFUL combination!

Why was it so awful? Because it so clearly combined a salty liquid with a "sweet" one!

Lemme get this straight: you poured an espresso into your soup, it tasted awful, and that's why espresso is sweet? Sorry, but something in this train of logic escapes me...

[orwa]

Yes I agree that something in that train of logic escaped : I poured that complex drink -called espresso, into my soup, allowing me to discern, from the so-clearly perceived conflict between saltiness and sweetness that being of a sweet nature was one of the many characteristics of that complex drink .

Lettuce stem is also sweet (and that's why my aunt likes it). So it's sweet like in lettuce (or beet), rather than like in ripe bananas.

Some people describe Turkish coffee as being sweet... I disagree! Being of a sweet nature is characteristic to espresso when compared to all the other extraction methods, of which no one seems to capture this. Turkish coffee is a black liquid that in my opinion tastes like charcoal water, and can be used as an alternative to soup in that regard to help someone realize that espresso is sweet when compared to other coffee drinks.

[RapidCoffee]

Yes I agree that something in that train of logic escaped : I poured that complex drink -called espresso, into my soup, allowing me to discern, from the so-clearly perceived conflict between saltiness and sweetness that being of a sweet nature was one of the many characteristics of that complex drink.

One bleary-eyed morning, I poured orange juice rather than milk into my espresso (an orange-cino? ), and it tasted awful too. But that didn't make the orange juice salty or the espresso sweet. My point is, some flavors just don't mix well. That's not a sound basis for judging the taste spectrum of espresso.

OTOH, espresso shots tend to be very concentrated, and the explosion of flavors on the palate can make it difficult to discern subtle nuances in taste. Diluting an espresso shot with water (Americano style) can make it easier to distinguish different flavors in a pour. (But I don't recommend using orange juice... )

[shadowfax]

What about that time you accidentally sprinkled bacon bits on your cappuccino instead of cinnamon?

* vomit *

[orwa]

Very funny . Sometimes the slight differences are successfully identified that way, I remember for example that my mom once mistook some unusual carry leaves for spinach, and cooked them the same way we do spinach. Later on, when she figured out that this was some other plant; she decided that the whole thing wasn't edible. What I tried however was to convince her that this was some sort of carry, but she wasn't convinced, namely because the odour wasn't as well-defined as it would be in dried carry (but rather a trace). So I made her smell some dried carry, wait for sometime, and then smell the thing, repeatedly, until she was convinced that this was truly carry. Another example is the occasional inability to distinguish very light colours from true white (assuming sun-light conditions), which is usually resolved by comparing the colour of concern to some true-white reference. What I am trying to say here is that this bizarre experiment made me feel the slight degree of sweetness usually present in espresso, where I would've been usually overwhelmed by the complexity of the drink, rather than to be able to taste it, which was similar in my estimation to the degree of sweetness I usually taste in the stem of lettuce. That being said, I am now able to keep on feeling that slight degree of sweetness without the help of lentil's soup (yes that was lentils).

[shadowfax]

It still seems... unreasonable to me. I don't see how you can get clarity on something as complex as espresso by pouring it in another complex, divergently different food. I don't get any nuances from the wine that I put in my spaghetti sauce. That's why you usually use a cheap cooking wine for it rather than an expensive one. I am not saying that your conclusion is wrong (espresso can indeed be very sweet, that is one of the elements of flavor that makes it so complex), just that I think that the soup is more likely to muddy the waters rather than clarify them. Even putting milk in espresso changes its character. I think adding water, as John said, is the only safe way to make the nuances of the espresso clear.

[dmankin]

... but I have yet to taste anything I would describe as "sweet"...or even chocolatey...Now I know I have a very sensitive nose for smell, and a fairly educated palate when it comes to tasting red wines...and I am very well versed in various chocolates from all around the world....So I know what many of the flavors ascribed to espresso are referring to...but as yet, haven't tasted anything "sweet"!

I found myself thinking the same way, until one magical event changed my thinking forever - I pulled a "God Shot" on my Bunn ES-1A. This 23 second shot looked like many others I had pulled, but when I took a sip, I was literally startled - something went wrong. I was caught off guard, so my reaction was negative... until I stopped and realized what was wrong.... this shot tasted sweet. Not sort-of sweet, or sweet-ish, it was truly sweet. Think espresso-candy sweet.

I have pulled 4 of these beauties in the year I've owned this machine. They are rare for me, but I know what to shoot for now. When it happens, it's amazing!

David

[orwa]

It still seems... unreasonable to me. I don't see how you can get clarity on something as complex as espresso by pouring it in another complex, divergently different food. I don't get any nuances from the wine that I put in my spaghetti sauce. That's why you usually use a cheap cooking wine for it rather than an expensive one. I am not saying that your conclusion is wrong (espresso can indeed be very sweet, that is one of the elements of flavor that makes it so complex), just that I think that the soup is more likely to muddy the waters rather than clarify them. Even putting milk in espresso changes its character. I think adding water, as John said, is the only safe way to make the nuances of the espresso clear.

My espresso do not adhere to the dosing or to the shot-volume constraints usually discussed around, mainly because of the special basket size, the low shower screen and the peculiarity of operation of a direct-lever machine like mine, hence resulting in a drink that is of less volume and, well, is more condensed than a traditional espresso shot. However, what I know for sure from experiment is that the drink I make for my mother, which is an espresso shot poured over water (that is 3 to four times the volume) is much harder for me to "make sense of" than the espresso I drink, which is identical to the shot I usually pour over water for my mother. This is also why I keep telling my mother that she is missing so much by diluting the "thing", and that a delicate property that I can taste in my espresso only turns out into "something acidic" that she -and I, can taste in her diluted drink. So, If I claim that I sense a slight degree of sweetness in my espresso, then I don't see how diluting the espresso with water will make the job easier. Someone in this thread already said that ristrettos are easier to deal with when it comes to tasting sweetness, which I think makes more sense that what you're saying.

Moreover, the reasoning that because espresso is a complex drink; it is made more difficult to sense a particular property in it by pouring it over another complex liquid doesn't hold. This is because I know what lentil's soup is... I know how it tastes... For ages I have been familiar with the sort of a boring, traditional food that one is, so, given that I know very well how each of these two things taste like in separate, mixing them together aids comparison, even if it doesn't aid carrying out a full analysis of the ingredients. Lentil's soup is best when salty, pouring one of my espresso shots over it introduced a lot of bizarre tastes, but most importantly had the effect of adding sugar, which was precisely why it tasted so disgusting.

EDIT: Note that this is totally different from the super-sweet effect Mr. David above is trying to explain, which is something that I read about a couple of times; that some candy-sweet espresso shots are occasionally produced under mysterious circumstances (which is something I find very interesting).

[Thatchmo]

Wow! Has this gotten interesting!!!

Orwa, thanks for chiming in all the way from Saudi Arabia! You have introduced some very interesting perspectives into the discussion of "taste"...And I understand what you meant, even though it wasn't exactly a linear, logical path....

It's a funny coincidence that I just bought "Arabian Mocha Java Pea-berry" coffee beans, roasted yesterday by Peet's Coffee, a local Californian Coffee shop/Roastery...I have no idea if they are actually grown in or near Saudi Arabia, but it's a confluence of similarities that I find amusing in a "small world" kind of way...Or maybe it proves that we really do live in the "Matrix"!!!

I will report back on the flavour extracted from your "local" beans, especially if they are "sweet" and "chocolatey"!

Kirk

[orwa]

I am glad to know that you think I said something useful. Actually in Saudi Arabia, the only thing they grow is palm trees (Saudi Arabia is the second largest producer of dates). When it comes to coffee beans however, Arabs seem to have only captured the name of the finest beans, but nothing else. The nearest place to Saudi Arabia in which they grow good coffee is "happy Yemen" (in Arabic, this is how they occasionally call it: "Yemen, the happy"). However, Yemeni people seem to have been obsessed with Qat, which has practically replaced most of the coffee crops (and most of the other crops as well, for Qat and coffee being, equally, a sort of a sinful "non-food" ), where some of the fine coffees are still being grown in the mountains. For example yesterday I bought 2 pounds of green "Kholany" beans, which are very famous amongst Arabs for making "Arabic Coffee" (an extraction method where beans are very-lightly roasted, ground, and boiled for hours with some special spices).

I hope that your Arabian beans will turn out great, but if they didn't, I consider myself not responsible .

[RapidCoffee]

It's a funny coincidence that I just bought "Arabian Mocha Java Pea-berry" coffee beans, roasted yesterday by Peet's Coffee, a local Californian Coffee shop/Roastery...I have no idea if they are actually grown in or near Saudi Arabia...

"Arabian" might be a mislabeling of "Arabica", one of the two major species of commercially cultivated coffee. Mocha Java is a classic blend, originally comprised of beans from the Yemen port of Moka and the Indonesian isle of Java. Peaberry coffee beans develop in the coffee cherry as a single oval bean rather than two flat-sided halves. AFAIK there's nothing in this name that relates to Saudi Arabia.

[orwa]

"Arabian" might be a mislabeling of "Arabica", one of the two major species of commercially cultivated coffee. Mocha Java is a classic blend, originally comprised of beans from the Yemen port of Moka and the Indonesian isle of Java. Peaberry coffee beans develop in the coffee cherry as a single oval bean rather than two flat-sided halves. AFAIK there's nothing in this name that relates to Saudi Arabia.

Yes right, that is what I was trying to say... The only bean that Saudi Arabia knows is actually oval, elongated, and has a fold on its side (that being the date seed my friend, which I heard is being commercially used to produce "dates coffee"). Moreover, "Arabica" is not only one of the two major species of commercially cultivated coffee, but it's rather the finest, and it comes from "Arabic", which in turn comes from "Arab". Moreover, and as to elaborate on the subject, the word "coffee" also comes from Arabic, which is something that I am not making up (I just looked it up here).

[RapidCoffee]

The only bean that Saudi Arabia knows is actually oval, elongated, and has a fold on its side (that being the date seed my friend, which I heard is being commercially used to produce "dates coffee"). Moreover, "Arabica" is not only one of the two major species of commercially cultivated coffee, but it's rather the finest, and it comes from "Arabic", which in turn comes from "Arab". Moreover, and as to elaborate on the subject, the word "coffee" also comes from Arabic...

You are tantalizingly close (at least on Google Maps) to both Yemen and Ethiopia, supposedly the birthplace of coffee. Some of the finest beans in the world, and certainly some of my personal favorites, are grown there. One would think you'd have access to great coffee in Saudi Arabia... but I imagine that much of the good stuff is exported to Europe and NA. That would explain the Caffe Vergnano bag pictured above.

[Thatchmo]

That's what I love about this site! A discussion of beans and their origins becomes a sociology and geography lesson! BTW - Orwa...what in the world is Qat?

Kirk

[gislipals]

Yes right, that is what I was trying to say... The only bean that Saudi Arabia knows is actually oval, elongated, and has a fold on its side (that being the date seed my friend, which I heard is being commercially used to produce "dates coffee"). Moreover, "Arabica" is not only one of the two major species of commercially cultivated coffee, but it's rather the finest, and it comes from "Arabic", which in turn comes from "Arab". Moreover, and as to elaborate on the subject, the word "coffee" also comes from Arabic, which is something that I am not making up (I just looked it up here).

Well, nota bene, just because someone typed it up on Wikipedia doesn't make it true necessarily. AFAIK there are a few different hypotheses regarding the name, such as the Kingdom of Kaffa having something to do with it.

Also, AFAIK qahwa isn't even an Arabian word, but a truncation of qahhwat al-bun (then again, that also comes from Wikipedia so it might well be incorrect ).

[orwa]

You are tantalizingly close (at least on Google Maps) to both Yemen and Ethiopia, supposedly the birthplace of coffee. Some of the finest beans in the world, and certainly some of my personal favorites, are grown there. One would think you'd have access to great coffee in Saudi Arabia... but I imagine that much of the good stuff is exported to Europe and NA. That would explain the Caffe Vergnano bag pictured above.

The only coffee drink that people know in the Arabic region is Turkish coffee, which is significantly less demanding in terms of everything, than espresso. This makes me think that the lower-end coffees are indeed consumed in my place whereas the best coffees are exported, like you said, to the other countries. This makes a lot of sense when you know that the regular price of roasted coffee in my place is nearly five dollars per pound, and that people are not willing to pay more than that for coffee. The only coffee I drink at home as straight espresso is some Ethiopian, really good beans that I buy from a local roaster within 3 days of roasting, where the only inconvenience I experience with that roaster is inconsistency (sometimes the roast is a bit lighter than desired), which is common in my place where roasters aren't into espresso coffee as to understand its requirements. I know Harrar, which is available everywhere in green form in 10-pound bags; however, I couldn't make decent espressos out of it (as a single origin), it's so much inferior to this other Ethiopian coffee I buy roasted.

That's what I love about this site! A discussion of beans and their origins becomes a sociology and geography lesson! BTW - Orwa...what in the world is Qat?

Kirk

Qat is a bad thing, a really bad thing, looking into the social impact in Yemen. You can find more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khat (since you like sociology )

Well, nota bene, just because someone typed it up on Wikipedia doesn't make it true necessarily. AFAIK there are a few different hypotheses regarding the name, such as the Kingdom of Kaffa having something to do with it.

Also, AFAIK qahwa isn't even an Arabian word, but a truncation of qahhwat al-bun (then again, that also comes from Wikipedia so it might well be incorrect).

Not precise, really, here is a brief description:

"Qahwa" is exactly coffee, which is, surprisingly, a derived word in Arabic (words in Arabic are derived from verbs, which are considered the real infinitive). The verb "Qaha", from which the word "Qahwa" is derived, means "to cause someone to lose appetite for food", which was the major effect observed by the old Arabs to be caused by drinking coffee.

"Al-Bun" or simply "Bun" (with an "o" sound rather than an "a" sound) is exactly coffee beans, which has no singular form ("Al-Bun" = "beans" of coffee).

Moreover, and as a bonus, "Moka" or "Mocha", which is the name of the old Yemeni port like said, is pronounced /Mucha:'/, where the "ch" combination is pronounced like in the German "achtung" rather than in "Rechnung" (which is a scary word, meaning the "bill"), the "u" is short, and the "a:" is long like in the IPA. Also, the word contains a stop consonant at the end, but this is probably getting too much (I, personally, cannot deal with foreign names until I know exactly how they are pronounced, but has not yet known how the word Yirgacheffe is pronounced ).

[jmgmgmt]

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